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Old 04-09-2021, 12:05 AM   #151
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Re: Would Eliminating The Minimum Wage + UBI + Tax Reform Help Immigration?

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Ok...
I think I know why we do not understand each other .

Take your graph for example .
Am I right to assume , at around 35k per individual in 2019 dollar it shows on it and it went back in time to around 25k in 1975 and 23k in 1980 ?
Approximately?
In 2019 dollar value correct ?


But 2019 dollar value are far more lower than 1970-1985 dollars .
Someone winning 23k in 1980 would win around 73k in today’s money .

You can’t take 2019 value money and compare it in the past .
It’s the other way around to take Into account inflation .
This does explain much of your misunderstanding. "Real" means inflation-adjusted. Ecriture d'adulte's chart is of real median personal income, i.e. inflation-adjusted median personal income. In nominal terms (i.e. in the actual dollar amount in their paycheck), the median personal income in 1975 was not $25K, but closer to $7600. It's only when you convert that nominal 1975 income of $7600 into its equivalent in 2019 dollars (i.e. "real" income) that it shows up as $25K.

EDIT: ponied.
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Old 04-09-2021, 12:11 AM   #152
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Re: Would Eliminating The Minimum Wage + UBI + Tax Reform Help Immigration?

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Fwiw, Iíve been out of school for a long time now ( sadly lol) , but seeing so many awesome info available about economy and investing in general on the internet, canít believe it isnít teach earlier at school .
Maybe now they do , I donít know .

But imho , massive positive change in behavior could help tremendously....
I know maths is important , geography etc .
But how not knowing to make the money work for you not as important ???
They really do not try hard to teach finance/econ as of the early 2000s at least. I had 1 semester of econ as an elective but 4 years of English, slogging through The Scarlet Letter etc. So i definitely agree with you on that.
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Old 04-09-2021, 12:11 AM   #153
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Re: Would Eliminating The Minimum Wage + UBI + Tax Reform Help Immigration?

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Huh? The chart shows median job was paying about 25k in 1975 in 2019 dollars . Their W-2s would show them making around 8k a year, not 25k.
Ok well 8000$ in 1975 into 2019 $ equal around 38 000$ On multiple sites that I try to convert on , shrug .
So it kinda fit to the pew research narrative that income hasn’t really move up for decades ?
Or maybe the Fast converter I try on multiple sites are wrong ....

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 04-09-2021 at 12:19 AM.
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Old 04-09-2021, 12:50 AM   #154
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Re: Would Eliminating The Minimum Wage + UBI + Tax Reform Help Immigration?

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Ok well 8000$ in 1975 into 2019 $ equal around 38 000$ On multiple sites that I try to convert on , shrug .
So it kinda fit to the pew research narrative that income hasnít really move up for decades ?
Or maybe the Fast converter I try on multiple sites are wrong ....
Most online inflation calculators use CPI-U (Consumer Price Index - Urban Consumers), an older measure of inflation, whereas most researchers, including the Federal Reserve chart ecriture d'adulte posted, use CPI-U-RS. The main difference is that CPI-U-RS uses the current CPI methodology to recalculate prior years CPI changes instead of just using the numbers that were published each year regardless of how CPI was calculated at that time.

According to CPI-U inflation has been a bit higher, so $7600 would be worth more in current dollars by that inflation measure. If you are interested, here is the BLS page about these measures.
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:02 AM   #155
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Re: Would Eliminating The Minimum Wage + UBI + Tax Reform Help Immigration?

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No, trade deficits are not inherently good or bad, just like borrowing is not inherently good or bad. We've had this discussion before. Here is the standard textbook answer from Greg Mankiw's Principles of Economics 6th ed:



Your real complaint is not about trade deficits, but just trade generally, because you think American workers aren't competitive with international workers and so they'll lose their jobs if we have an open economy. This is also why tariffs don't strongly affect the trade deficit, as we saw under Trump. However, you're also wrong about trade: American workers are competitive internationally, just not at things like making t-shirts. This is why getting a college education has become so much more important in the US for a high income - our comparative advantage over other countries is generally not in physical labor, and so a high income usually requires more specialized education and training.
No it's about the fact that when you buy something from another economy you give them your wealth. You prop up their entire supply chain and you get one disposable item in return.

The US worker can't compete with countries that employ slave labor or force school children to work in factories like China does. But that's not an issue unless we decide to buy that slavery with our middle class jobs.

Sure, opiates are okay when you need them. It's just building a lifestyle around them that causes predictable problems. Building an economy around a trade deficit will have similar predictable bad outcomes.

And lol at the high paid US jobs that no one else can do. Engineers are the new factory workers. And since they've been trained not to organize they'll be easy to fleece. Hell, I know one or two that will sit there and proudly explain how they don't have good health care or a pension and work 60 hour weeks. lol Dummies.




I mean, you do a good job of putting lipstick on the goat but I'm still not taking her out.
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Old 04-09-2021, 11:34 AM   #156
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Re: Would Eliminating The Minimum Wage + UBI + Tax Reform Help Immigration?

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Ok well 8000$ in 1975 into 2019 $ equal around 38 000$ On multiple sites that I try to convert on , shrug .
So it kinda fit to the pew research narrative that income hasn’t really move up for decades ?
Or maybe the Fast converter I try on multiple sites are wrong ....
Right. That real income hasn't grown as fast as real aggregate wealth or real earnings is (I think) an argument that can be made. But other developed countries have similar problems and flat real wages is not inconsistent with increased standards of living.. That's specifically about the UK after the great recession, but it shows how multifaceted the issue is. Overall, I think trade is being unfairly scapegoated, especially when according to your own arguments, it causes increases in real wages by providing cheaper goods. Who's to say we wouldn't have had falling real wages if we arbitrarily insisted on no trade deficit?
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Old 04-09-2021, 12:17 PM   #157
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Re: Would Eliminating The Minimum Wage + UBI + Tax Reform Help Immigration?

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No it's about the fact that when you buy something from another economy you give them your wealth. You prop up their entire supply chain and you get one disposable item in return.
Nah, what's actually happening is we give them little pieces of paper with pictures of famous Americans on them in exchange for goods. Those pieces of paper are only valuable insofar as they can buy things in the American economy. If other countries or businesses decide they want to hold onto a bunch of American IOUs instead of buying things immediately, fine, go for it. Seems to me more like a sign of confidence in the productivity and stability of the American economy.

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The US worker can't compete with countries that employ slave labor or force school children to work in factories like China does. But that's not an issue unless we decide to buy that slavery with our middle class jobs.
Slavery is a bad economic system. To have a rich economy you need innovation, advances in technology, and entrepreneurship. Those come from free markets and free labor. You need to update your economic views past the nineteenth-century.

Similarly with child labor - much better for the economy to invest money in a good education for kids so that when they are adults they are educated enough to work in more productive jobs. Other countries are too poor or otherwise unable to make this investment in education, but the US is not.
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Old 04-09-2021, 01:42 PM   #158
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Re: Would Eliminating The Minimum Wage + UBI + Tax Reform Help Immigration?

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Nah, what's actually happening is we give them little pieces of paper with pictures of famous Americans on them in exchange for goods. Those pieces of paper are only valuable insofar as they can buy things in the American economy. If other countries or businesses decide they want to hold onto a bunch of American IOUs instead of buying things immediately, fine, go for it. Seems to me more like a sign of confidence in the productivity and stability of the American economy.



Slavery is a bad economic system. To have a rich economy you need innovation, advances in technology, and entrepreneurship. Those come from free markets and free labor. You need to update your economic views past the nineteenth-century.

Similarly with child labor - much better for the economy to invest money in a good education for kids so that when they are adults they are educated enough to work in more productive jobs. Other countries are too poor or otherwise unable to make this investment in education, but the US is not.
You're telling me I need to update my economic views when I remind you of the evils of the Chinese economy ?

Dude, don't shoot the messenger. Or if you're going to try, pull your head out of your ass first so you don't shoot your own nuts off.


Sure, having a world currency is nice. Having an economy that's serving the citizens is nice too. But the Clintons were terrible at doing business deals and needed the US workers to make their fortune. lol The American dream at work.
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Old 04-09-2021, 01:57 PM   #159
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Re: Would Eliminating The Minimum Wage + UBI + Tax Reform Help Immigration?

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You're telling me I need to update my economic views when I remind you of the evils of the Chinese economy ?
The CCP's current oppression of the Uyghur's, including using them as forced labor, is deeply wrong and worthy of condemnation. However, that is not the source of Chinese economic growth over the last few decades, which is a great humanitarian triumph in bringing hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.
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Old 04-09-2021, 02:04 PM   #160
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Re: Would Eliminating The Minimum Wage + UBI + Tax Reform Help Immigration?

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The CCP's current oppression of the Uyghur's, including using them as forced labor, is deeply wrong and worthy of condemnation. However, that is not the source of Chinese economic growth over the last few decades, which is a great humanitarian triumph in bringing hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.
Sure, China has resources and labor. They should have an economy that works for their citizens. They just don't need us to give them our wealth to enrich a few of our politicians.
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Old 04-09-2021, 02:47 PM   #161
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Re: Would Eliminating The Minimum Wage + UBI + Tax Reform Help Immigration?

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Nah, what's actually happening is we give them little pieces of paper with pictures of famous Americans on them in exchange for goods. Those pieces of paper are only valuable insofar as they can buy things in the American economy. If other countries or businesses decide they want to hold onto a bunch of American IOUs instead of buying things immediately, fine, go for it. Seems to me more like a sign of confidence in the productivity and stability of the American economy.
And of course there is a country that has really come pretty close to implementing this sort of MAGAnomics philosophy:

1. Maintain a trade surplus to avoid shipping job overseas
2. Hold large amounts of foreign debt to take wealth from other countries
3. Restrict immigration to boost domesticate wages

Unfortunately that country is Japan who's seen far worse real wage growth than the US, EU etc.
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