i agree with that, i'm personally biased how my immediate and extended family have all made huge strides in just two generations

but i've also lived it, i legit can't go back home where i grew up because it's awkward af because i moved onward and upward and there I am bumping into my old classmate who is working the register and it just becomes super awkward and judgemental - the cultural divide is just absurd, i can't socialize with those people because it either gets contentious or becomes a pity party and it's just miserable, obviously not as weird among people i used to be really close with because with them the focus in on the person not the situation but running into someone i played soccer with, yikes, no thanks, don't want to deal with 10 minutes of backhanded compliments nor a woe is me story about how unfair life is

for reference i grew up in western mass, <10% of people at my public school went to college and most of em went to local state school or junior college, no real middle class jobs there, everything is service industry working registers and lawnmowers, extremely few white collar jobs, after graduating college, i planned on staying there for a year or so but couldn't because there was literally no gainful employment and i couldn't even get a job working at a warehouse because they saw i was a college grad and would do the predictable thing of working for a brief period then moving on

I know what you mean .
We all start somewhere .
Some take more time than others to get there .

ya those people suck. you are awesome.

I'm well aware that voter fraud is a non issue. I wasn't even thinking about that when I wrote the OP. It's not the only reason immigration reform is a topic every election cycle

I'm not sure why you're getting like this about it, but the southern border definitely seems like a problem. At the forefront of my thoughts are the moral implications of how we treat asylum seekers and the path to citizenship itself...

I'm well aware that immigrants, documented or otherwise, are a net positive in terms for tax receipts/benefits paid and commit crimes at a lower rate than the general populace

However, I certainly do not agree immigration is a non-issue. ICE still exists, for example. I merely had an idea pop into my head and made it a thread wrt to UBI

If we're talking specifically about immigration alone, a larger state department and cleaning up messes we've made in central America would help. Legalizing drugs and doing other things to remove power from violent cartels helps. Mexico legalizing marijuana hopefully has a massive, positive impact...

I just thought UBI could be another tool useful in streamlining immigration policy in its reform, as it seems to be a point of contention year in and year out and yet we never overhaul it. I'm thinking more about the humanitarian aspect of it

The US is a vast land and UBI does not have to be some gigantic incentive to not work. We're still based in capitalism and it's arguable the labor market becomes more fluid with UBI. Much like UHC, the existence of such means you can take the job you want instead of the job you need or even not work at all. This is good for the economy for a multitude of reasons, including a greater morale and utility derived from work that is desired most rather than forced upon you

The CBO can calculate stuff and make a range of recommendations with desired outcomes in terms of policy in mind anyway. What I think is stupid is having undocumented immigrants come in and work under the table. And no income and/or wage taxes are paid. There is a whole underground economy because our tax code is FUBAR and immigration policy hasn't really fully addressed everything from start to finish in terms of how someone gets here and becomes naturalized. Or at least I was under that impression

The fact that sanctuary cities exist make me think, even if I agree sanctuary cities are sound policy for many reasons despite valid criticisms of them, that comprehensive reform is needed. They wouldn't exist if policy addressed everything and effectively. We should be striving to eliminate the need for the existence of that and any underground economy or black market. And human trafficking...I just feel like there is a path we can take where everybody wins

I think people get frazzled in these talks as they are mostly fake issues and they know that the goal is to enflame discussion on them because that is the only way they can fake that they are legit.

"See look at how high the percent of citizens are that are concerned about this... so of course this is an issue we need to address...'

We call that the 'Trump election fraud method'. Force fake claims of fraud into the discourse so many times and despite it being fake people then become concerned. You then say 'because people are concerned we need to discuss, investigate' and do all the things that will legitimate it and add more doubt. Cut, paste, repeat.

Obama and Biden had the far better approach to the S.Border which they labeled Obama 'The Deporter in Chief' for.

You can't really stop people coming but you can send them back.

I think the current media focus on 'LOOK AT HOW MANY ARE COMING' as the front page headline is so purposely dishonest when what should be focused on is what percent are getting to stay and what percent are getting sent back. But people would be less likely to be concerned or outraged and tune in if they did that.

Yeah and after a UBI we'd be lucky to see that drop to 69%. Sure, initially everyone is happy with the extra money but aside from the genuine needy everyone else will allow their expenses to rise to meet their new income and in a couple/few years they'll perceive themselves to be just as poor and broke as they are today, largely because they will be just as poor and broke as they are today, relatively speaking. So obviously the initial UBI wasn't enough.... rinse and repeat until people magically stop living paycheck to paycheck.

Some people like myself think with a second chance people do better and some like yourself, think no one gets better over time I suppose , shrug .

But economically speaking , your moral assumptions about people isn’t 100% factually proofs that is what would happen in the majority of cases .

I mean generationally speaking , a lot of them never even had the opportunity to do right , the system in which they born in was already screwed up .....

Ps: when a % of people as high as 70% can’t seem to get by , I’m incline to think you know what , maybe just maybe , it isn’t the people that is 70% ****** around me , maybe it’s possible it is the system that is screwed up ....

Maybe for you it need reaches 85%, 90% maybe even 99% to give them the benefit of a doubt, who knows .

Maybe don't touchdown in your augusta westland and cruise town in your bentley

The fact that the goal posts will never stop moving is sort of by design, though. You're not actually giving them a counterpoint here.

Compare poor American households from 30-50 years ago vs today. Only a fool would try to claim things haven't improved significantly.

You can't lay the entirety of blame on poor people for their current circumstances, but they are 100% responsible for where they are 3 years from now. There are so many programs in place to help people succeed. People say, "You have to want to change." No, you have to take actual steps. How many of the people who can't absorb a $500 emergency expense have a smoking or a drinking habit, for instance?

If you have a limited resource, you better put what you do have to good use.

Lifestyle creep guarantees that you can't solve poverty by just throwing money at it. Intelligent decisions must be made with that money by the recipients.

Montrealcorp has way too much faith in his fellow man, I think. I like the idea of UBI replacing existing programs. It's just easier to administer. However, will we as a society be willing to ignore the cries of the people who find themselves homeless even with UBI in place?

i know you're joking but this gap started the minute i started attending prep school and was cemented once i went to college

it's hard to explain the dynamics but inevitably there'd be a bunch of backhanded compliments thrown in "oh it must be nice to..." stuff like that, yes they were working the register at the gas station, but they could clearly see i'm driving a 1989 volvo ffs

and +1 million to the comment about people not having $500 but still having a pack and day of marlboro habit - they have the money, they just choose poorly - it's understandable, not smoking marlboros isn't going to buy them a new house, but when you see things on twitter about people saying AP tests are biased because they have a $50 fee and some families can't afford that I have zero sympathy, absolutely no american raising children can't squirrel away $50 for an AP test, it's not poverty but rather irresponsible parents who use poverty to excuse their horrible parenting

I think immigration coming up every cycle is fairly close to a voter fraud made up type issue. The main issue is the US will not be a majority white country in the near future; but republicans can't directly talk about that without sounding like Nazis and losing moderate Mitt Romney> Trump type voters so they talk about immigration reform. One big clue it's mostly made up is the voters most likely to list the "immigration crisis as a top issue election after election live in parts of the country with the fewest amount of recent immigrants.

Wow.

He's not entirely wrong.

But odds are that poor students already qualify for the fee to be waived or greatly reduced. For the few states that don't knock it down to $0-10 for the exam, I'd bet those parents pissed away more than $50 in the month prior.

Exceptions perhaps for the rare 100% disabled single parent who is somehow making ends meet on a fully fixed income. In those cases, it's time to swallow your pride and ask the school for help. I've never met a teacher who wouldn't pull the $53 out of their own pocket if they believed in the student.

As an educator, I'm sure you'd agree.

The point isn't about whether there's a way to resolve individual situations, but that anyone who thinks there aren't any Americans for whom "squirrelling away" $50 for an AP test would be impossible, is blind to reality.

That said, while I'm not an educator (I am involved in education), I would expect and hope that most schools would have a solution for this. I'd be disappointed to learn that any school in our district wasn't able to find a way to resolve such a situation.

I stand by my statement, it's not possible for someone raising children in the United States to not qualify for reduces fees/fee exemption, ask, nor be able to squirrel away $50 for an ap test

All too often we use poverty as a blanket excuse when it's rarely the sole factor involved.

Yes, coming up with that $50 on short notice may be difficult, but there's close to zero chance they hadn't used $50 on discretional spending the month leading up to the fee if you're in a situation where you're already raising children.

It's not just poverty, yes, if they had more money it wouldn't be an issue, but indifference, lack of priorities, and a awhile other slew of issues need to be happening as well. Bottom line is no matter what the financial situation of an Asian household may be, you'll never find them being unable to come up with $50 for an AP test.

Priorities and motivation matter.

That's actually quite a bit different, and I wouldn't argue that point.

Fwiw , when you have a population that reach a range of 70% having difficulty, I am pretty sure a lot more will benefit from UBI and not being homeless than the contrary .
And I think the difference is massive.

Presuming ubi will fix every monetary problems is obviously a false debate.
Money do not fix mental illness or stupidity unfortunately .

Ps: it’s obvious if you have say , 20-25% of people not having enough money to get by for a month (instead of around70% now) , UBI wouldn’t even be talk as a serious alternative .

Thinking every poor person is at fault is like thinking every rich person worked for their money-universal statements, especially about people, are the nut low

I have the utmost faith in you.

Some women are poor because they feed their children.

People just make poor life choices and should be punished.

I don't know what you think is going on here with this obvious BS 70% number you quote all the time. If someone is making more than median income in the US, which has one of the highest median incomes of any country in the world and are living month-to-month, except for exceptional circumstances, that's on them, not the government or its economic policy.

UBI can help the actual poor in the US by removing work disincentives and providing a floor so that people don't starve or have to go homeless, but it's not really about helping people in the middle class be able to afford paying their bills. In particular, if you are making more than median income, you'll end up giving most of it back in higher taxes anyway.

You do realize that you merely state the obvious, right?

The point is there is more to it than that

We vote for and refuse to do anything that breaks up the perpetuation of the status quo. It results in people prioritizing the wrong things

For example, with UHC, a person will stop going to the emergency room and see a doctor and get proper, optimal care. Their child will see that and do the same. Without UHC, a person will go to the emergency room for non-emergencies, skip the bill, and think it's all OK. Their child will see that and go to the emergency room for non-emergencies, skip the bill, and think it's all OK

Or food insecurity. Or jail prioritized over rehab. Or harsher sentences handed to POCs for the same crimes. You break the chains that cement poverty and less people will be entrenched in irresponsible behavior...

If everyone went to harvard we'd have an entire world of Harvard grads working McDonald's and modding 2+2

Equality has never nor ever will exist no matter how much you wish it be

So the greater the wealth gap the better ?

That always ends well.

Now you're creating strawmen