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Old 07-10-2020, 03:14 PM   #1
Kelhus100
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What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

Lost in the giant poo flinging contest between Itshot and Wookie in one of the other threads was Itshot linking a point made by the former mayor of Minneapolis that I thought worth genuine debate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/09/o...es-racism.html

It isn't that long, so I would recommend just reading the piece, but the general premise is that white liberal (middle class) America should be willing to leave their comfort zone, and facilitate reform that they perceive as risking their well-being, for the greater good.

In the piece the mayor is being critical of "White" America, but I think it is fair, if not more accurate, to replace this with the "Middle Class" America identity. I live in a much more diverse upper middle class neighborhood than the parts of Minneapolis she is describing, and the same dynamics she notes are certainly present here and not a "white" issue at all.
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Old 07-10-2020, 03:33 PM   #2
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

Anyways, I think the article the Mayor of Minneapolis is asking too much from middle class Americans, both for pragmatic and "evolutionary" reasons.

For example, for good or bad most middle class Americans a large % of their wealth is tied up in their home equity, so asking them to voluntarily change zoning laws and integrate schools (both options that have the potential to drastically reduce the value of their house) is a very big ask. And another related issue is safety, especially for their children. Asking middle class people to voluntarily give up the safety of their children (at least in their perception) again is a very big ask.

The evolutionary perspective is basically built on similar premises. All animals, including humans, are hardwired to instinctually weigh (more certain) near term genetic fitness over (much less certain) long term genetic fitness. So again, IMO it is a monumental ask to ask any individual or group to take such a leap. I am sure with the right conditioning it is possible, but it is asking a lot.
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Old 07-10-2020, 03:38 PM   #3
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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It will mean organizing for structural changes that wealthy and middle-class whites have long feared — like creating school systems that truly give all children a chance, providing health care for everyone that isn’t tied to employment, reconfiguring police unions and instituting public safety protocols that don’t simply prioritize protecting white property and lives.
I breezed through the article since I'm at work. I'll definitely spend time on it later.

This paragraph caught my eye and I want to know what the bolded part means. What are examples of safety protocols that act as protections for white people?
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Old 07-10-2020, 04:07 PM   #4
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

Affirmative Action
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Old 07-10-2020, 05:24 PM   #5
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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It will mean organizing for structural changes that wealthy and middle-class whites have long feared ó like creating school systems that truly give all children a chance, providing health care for everyone that isnít tied to employment, reconfiguring police unions and instituting public safety protocols that donít simply prioritize protecting white property and lives.
Not many liberals are going to have a problem with this stuff.

Devaluing a house that took you 30 years to pay off ?
That's a different story.
And it's not necessary for one person to lose his middle class status for another to attain it. That's conservative thinking right there !!
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Old 07-10-2020, 10:49 PM   #6
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

As evolutionary as that article proposes, it is not.

To believe that integrating schools and neighborhoods devalues your life and threatens your safety - is the basis of inherent racism in itself. There are plenty of middle class black/brown folks. There are even plenty of middle class Muslims (shocker there?). I know this because they own homes and pay high Seattle rents in my neighborhood.

They are just as interested in safety - and our suburbs are mixed as well - and they are interested in safety - as those supposed white middle class folks in Minneapolis.

You will find this outlook more in the poorer classes, that is brought up with numbers means protection, and it is with all races in this group. That is where main racism still stands. And people in their 70's, 80's from the south (like my mother).

That article brings up basic racism, not evolutionary thinking. If it were evolutionary, no fear would be there. No bias, no unconscious racism, everyone is just human.
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Old 07-10-2020, 11:19 PM   #7
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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As evolutionary as that article proposes, it is not.

To believe that integrating schools and neighborhoods devalues your life and threatens your safety - is the basis of inherent racism in itself. There are plenty of middle class black/brown folks. There are even plenty of middle class Muslims (shocker there?). I know this because they own homes and pay high Seattle rents in my neighborhood.

They are just as interested in safety - and our suburbs are mixed as well - and they are interested in safety - as those supposed white middle class folks in Minneapolis.

You will find this outlook more in the poorer classes, that is brought up with numbers means protection, and it is with all races in this group. That is where main racism still stands. And people in their 70's, 80's from the south (like my mother).

That article brings up basic racism, not evolutionary thinking. If it were evolutionary, no fear would be there. No bias, no unconscious racism, everyone is just human.
The evolutionary part was my own personal commentary. Sorry if there was any confusion. I don't think the author of the letter was thinking along those lines at all.

Regardless, I am pretty sure the former mayor would argue that having ethnically diverse upper middle class enclaves geographically isolated from urban neighborhoods is part of the problem, not the solution.

Its the quiet parts most people won't say outloud, but I think most of us recognize concern for safety and home prices are 2 major reason for strict zoning laws and aggressive policing separating the middle/upper-middle classes (regardless of the racial mix) from urban areas in liberal cities.

Last edited by Kelhus100; 07-10-2020 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 07-10-2020, 11:21 PM   #8
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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Not many liberals are going to have a problem with this stuff.

Devaluing a house that took you 30 years to pay off ?
That's a different story.
And it's not necessary for one person to lose his middle class status for another to attain it. That's conservative thinking right there !!
the reason it took 30 years to pay off is due to those zoning laws
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Old 07-11-2020, 12:13 AM   #9
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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I breezed through the article since I'm at work. I'll definitely spend time on it later.

This paragraph caught my eye and I want to know what the bolded part means. What are examples of safety protocols that act as protections for white people?
I think she's referring to proactive or crime prevention sort of policing, presumably because she believes it does more harm to black communities than good. Not hard to imagine how suggesting such could push whites in neighboring areas out of their comfort zone in regard to their personal safety.

It's debatable whether that fear is justified or not but I don't think it's debatable that black communities are policed more aggressively than white communities. And pretty disproportionately so. For example, if it's true that blacks commit violent crime at twice the rate as whites, it doesn't seem even remotely true that white communities are policed half as aggressively as black ones. It seems like white communities aren't policed in a crime prevention sense at all, not that whites would put up with getting policed half as aggressively, anyway.
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Old 07-11-2020, 01:13 AM   #10
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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Whatever the result, a sustainable transformation of policing will require that white people of means disinvest in the comfort of our status quo.
Its not just whites, its everyone.

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It's debatable whether that fear is justified or not but I don't think it's debatable that black communities are policed more aggressively than white communities. And pretty disproportionately so. For example, if it's true that blacks commit violent crime at twice the rate as whites, it doesn't seem even remotely true that white communities are policed half as aggressively as black ones. It seems like white communities aren't policed in a crime prevention sense at all, not that whites would put up with getting policed half as aggressively, anyway.
Back in the 1980s through 2010, and beyond at a smaller level, this was the case. The less policing of whites were that crimes often received tickets, not arrests. My niece was the recipient of many of those advantages (including DUI while driving without a license, underage). That was Arizona. They took her in and let her go. Black or latino? Nah. This was the term of that sheriff Joe Arpaio.

Whether the fear is justifiable or not, it is still the basis of racism. which is the belly behind the protests. Just my opinion.
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Old 07-11-2020, 03:05 AM   #11
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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Back in the 1980s through 2010, and beyond at a smaller level, this was the case. The less policing of whites were that crimes often received tickets, not arrests. My niece was the recipient of many of those advantages (including DUI while driving without a license, underage). That was Arizona. They took her in and let her go. Black or latino? Nah. This was the term of that sheriff Joe Arpaio.
Wow, that sucks they took her in. So long as we weren't too drunk they'd just tell us to stay off the main roads; gave us a ride home if we were.
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Whether the fear is justifiable or not, it is still the basis of racism. which is the belly behind the protests. Just my opinion.
Yeah. I think the police killings are more of catalyst igniting a whole bunch of underlying kindling.
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Old 07-11-2020, 03:28 AM   #12
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

I thought the problem was that black neighborhoods are policed less than others..but some people think differently it seems

if the criminal areas were policed even half as much as the mob was then most problems would be solved

that's how most crime was destroyed in the past but with every reform it seems to get worse but hey who knows ey
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Old 07-11-2020, 03:44 AM   #13
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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Yeah. I think the police killings are more of catalyst igniting a whole bunch of underlying kindling.
Not with a 3.7% unemployment number, which was obviously affected by COVID, but still...it seems to me outrage took on a metaphorical network effect.

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The network effect can create a bandwagon effect as the network becomes more valuable and more people join, resulting in a positive feedback loop.
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Two experiments demonstrate the powerful influence of others’ views on individual attitudes and attitude expression. Those around us can influence our views through persuasion and information exchange, but the current research hypothesizes that exposure to alternate views even without discussion or exchange of persuasive arguments can also alter what attitudes are expressed, and even generate long term shifts in attitudes. In an initial study, naÔve participants were asked their attitudes on a range of standard survey items privately, publicly in a group with trained confederates, and again privately following the group setting. Findings indicate significant attitudinal conformity, which was most pronounced when participants were faced with a unanimous (versus non-unanimous) group. The group experience continued to influence participants’ views when they were again asked their views in private. A second experiment varied whether participants heard views from live confederates or via computer, demonstrating that these effects could not be attributed only to issue-relevant information provided by or inferred from group members, and that attitude change persisted long after participants had left the laboratory. In summary, when people are asked their attitudes publicly, they adjust their responses to conform to those around them, and this attitude change persists privately, even weeks later. Accordingly, such purely social processes of attitude change may be every bit as important as more traditional cognitive informational processes in understanding where people’s political attitudes come from, and how they may be changed.
https://link.springer.com/article/10...109-015-9312-x

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Old 07-11-2020, 04:18 AM   #14
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

Stop being silent.

Call it out every single time.

Don’t think by not directly and openly supporting it you are opposing it.

When your city council has a meeting about including low income housing mixed into your neighborhood, show up and whole heartedly support it.

If you know the President is a racist and regularly attacking minorities don’t regular defend and try to protect them from attack.

Demand that policing be drastically altered.

When issues of systemic racism are brought up, don’t get out your “Both sides Monocle”.

Push for M4A and Free College Tuition.

Scream about bail reform every chance you can.

Protest the private prison industry and boycott and companies that do business with them.

Demand your workplace provide equal opportunity and equal pay for minorities.

Do something to counteract the massive food deserts.

Start out with those. Once you get those locked down, we can discuss the massive number of other things that can be done.
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Old 07-11-2020, 04:23 AM   #15
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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I thought the problem was that black neighborhoods are policed less than others..but some people think differently it seems

if the criminal areas were policed even half as much as the mob was then most problems would be solved

that's how most crime was destroyed in the past but with every reform it seems to get worse but hey who knows ey
You spread low income housing throughout. You donít isolate it to specific areas.

That fixes a lot of problems. But it really upsets a lot of racists.
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Old 07-11-2020, 07:32 AM   #16
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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the reason it took 30 years to pay off is due to those zoning laws

In some cases do to redlining which was overt racism.

In some cases it's just because poverty is ugly and dangerous and no one wants to raise children in it, so people pay a premium to insulate their families from it.

Two things here. Huge lifetime investment and looking after your family.
I don't care how progressive you are.....you're going to do what's best for your family if not your bottom line.
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Old 07-11-2020, 07:40 AM   #17
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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You spread low income housing throughout. You donít isolate it to specific areas.

That fixes a lot of problems. But it really upsets a lot of racists.
LOL

Beverly Hills Low Income Suites.
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Old 07-11-2020, 08:55 AM   #18
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

Like I said, our whole system is predicated on the middle class having much of their wealth locked into their home equity. Are we really sure messing with this:

A. Would work in the ways intended.
B. Is even a reasonable request to begin with.

Its a trickier problem then I think the public discourse is giving it credit for.
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Old 07-11-2020, 12:11 PM   #19
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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You spread low income housing throughout. You don’t isolate it to specific areas.

That fixes a lot of problems. But it really upsets a lot of racists.
At least for the city I live in, low income areas are spread out pretty evenly. Of course there are pockets of low income housing as well as pockets of $500k and up homes. I don't think you'll ever see a housing project surrounded on either side by mansions, and I don't know that if that happened anything would be better.

Policing needs upgraded across the board in all areas. More police in high-crime areas, more community outreach programs in those areas, don't have the cops dress up in military tactical gear like they're clearing terrorist cells in Fallujah, and many other things I could get into but don't have the time. The Camden changes in personnel and leaders provide a path for a decent upgrade in policing from everything I've seen.
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Old 07-11-2020, 06:17 PM   #20
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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Originally Posted by Kelhus100 View Post
Like I said, our whole system is predicated on the middle class having much of their wealth locked into their home equity. Are we really sure messing with this:

A. Would work in the ways intended.
B. Is even a reasonable request to begin with.

Its a trickier problem then I think the public discourse is giving it credit for.
Huh? This will be a huge, perhaps pivotal issue come November, imo. Whether it was the former mayor's intent with this piece or not the Dems will surely be trying to get out in front of the issue:

https://joebiden.com/housing/
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Eliminate local and state housing regulations that perpetuate discrimination.
Exclusionary zoning has for decades been strategically used to keep people of color and low-income families out of certain communities. As President, Biden will enact legislation requiring any state receiving federal dollars through the Community Development Block Grants or Surface Transportation Block Grants to develop a strategy for inclusionary zoning, as proposed in the HOME Act of 2019 by Majority Whip Clyburn and Senator Cory Booker.
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Old 07-11-2020, 06:26 PM   #21
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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You spread low income housing throughout. You donít isolate it to specific areas.

That fixes a lot of problems. But it really upsets a lot of racists.
Sadly even liberals say That is a great idea till you try and build in their neighborhood.
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Old 07-11-2020, 06:40 PM   #22
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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Huh? This will be a huge, perhaps pivotal issue come November, imo. Whether it was the former mayor's intent with this piece or not the Dems will surely be trying to get out in front of the issue:

https://joebiden.com/housing/
One thing you can count of from Biden is he'll pivot right once he gets the votes he needs.

Way, way right.
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Old 07-11-2020, 06:42 PM   #23
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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Sadly even liberals say That is a great idea till you try and build in their neighborhood.
Its funny how it works like this everywhere. The bay area is particularly notable due to the lack of affordable housing and strong liberal bent.
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Old 07-12-2020, 05:56 AM   #24
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

It feels like some folks just woke up and realized it's 1976.
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Old 07-12-2020, 06:04 AM   #25
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Re: What should be asked of middle class (white) America to combat systemic discrimination?

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Originally Posted by RFlushDiamonds View Post
Not many liberals are going to have a problem with this stuff.

Devaluing a house that took you 30 years to pay off ?
That's a different story.
And it's not necessary for one person to lose his middle class status for another to attain it. That's conservative thinking right there !!
No way do liberals want to integrate schools or provide health care.
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