Trump will be Trump but my position on Biden comes from watching him when people get in his face and challenge him.

If you think that type of response by him is way out context then you have not watched Biden enough.

Seriously, I think it's almost a guarantee any debates will have some element of that. I kinda doubt it will actually come to blows--although that would be awesome There's definitely gonna be some trash talk in that direction though imo. Who starts it might be a better line--I'm going with trump firing the first shots.

Debates are a tough issue for both Biden and Trump. Trump obviously has an interest in depicting Biden as old and doddering. If Biden debates, that will be the Republican narrative coming out of the debate, regardless of how well or poorly Biden actually performs. If Biden refuses to debate, then Republicans obviously will say that Biden was afraid to put his mental state on display. They won't have the sound bites of stumbling and malapropisms that have always been a staple of Biden's public speaking, even when he was much younger, but it will be easy to argue that Biden is hiding in a closet.

All things considered, I guess that I think Biden is slightly better off debating than not debating, but it's a relatively close call. I generally agree with cuepee and awval about the best strategy for Biden in the debates.

The debate moderators will be going after Trump to a degree that has probably never been seen before in a presidential debate. For example, I fully expect a moderator to spend five minutes reciting obviously lies that Trump has said over his four years in office, and then ask whether constant lying has diminished the office.

The exercise surely will be no fun for Trump, I'm not sure which way those questions will cut. I suspect that they might actually help him, horrifying as that is.

12 more years!

"... but it will be easy to argue that Biden is hiding in a closet. ..."

Biden hiding in the closet has seen him get his best approval ratings both in the primaries and this GE.

That is not something Dem voters should fear.

Pre jumping into the primaries Biden soared and his image was prestine. He entered as the Front Runner and for many the presumptive nominee all based on being in the bunker (not out in public).

But then as he actually got out and campaigned and had to make his own case, he plummeted. He was a hair away from being forced to drop out (in 7th place?) heading into super Tuesday as his campaign was broke and his support dwindling.

But he was saved by that, as he basically went back in the bunker (media stopped focusing on him and instead all the other Dems) and his image again rose.


I always say 'the idea of Biden that people hold of him is hard to beat politically. It shines. But then the reality of Biden, when he does campaign and speak just makes people lose interest. They are like 'oh ya, that is him' and they just do not feel inspired to get up and vote for him despite liking him.

The more he puts himself out there for direct contrast to Trump and the more he campaigns the tighter you will see this race get.

Trump cannot win this election but Biden sure can lose it.

Hahaha. The Dems will win if their candidate will just stfu and stay home! Better let "doctor" Jill take it from here!

Well, Biden should go out and campaign some as the incumbent according to Trump's messaging, otherwise the only one talking about how they need to be elected to fix the mess of the past few years will be Trump.


That assumes literally nothing changes with how people view the campaigning situation, and I think that is a pretty hopeful outlook. He is the official nominated candidate now, so this is the time he should be making his message heard. Months ago before the conventions was different in that regard.


We had an equivalent fight in Canada.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyoEcbk3EP0

Biden has a distinct advantage if ramps or glasses of water are at hand.

Hey look it's one of them Constitution lovers

I can only imagine the messaging that would happen 8 years from now. Hillary's emails, building the wall, and putting someone in office that will fix the mess that the Democrats created in the past 12 years. If it aint broke, don't fix it!

I see no reason for Biden to break the 60 year precedent of debating just because he is ahead. He was in like 8 debates from June to Feb and led the whole time so he isn’t even a bad debater. Should be easier to debate against Trump. Pivot as much as possible back to the trump administration’s failed covid response which has given the US the most fatalities world wide.

If it was anyone but Trump I would agree.

But if anyone is under the illusion that a debate with Trump will be anything resembling productive it will not.

Trump will just repeat a thousand lies:

- Obama took a strong economy from Bush and ruined it and handed to me
- Obama was not American
- your son is a criminal and you covered for him


And the very act of trying to counter each one with fact or explanation plays into Trumps hands. You either let the stand uncontested or you play into.

You cannot engage a flat earther in debate and think you can win when their whole point is simply to get you to engage in the lies which is the win for them.

Trump will dominate the time with non stop lies.

During a presidential debate? I think he's professional and mature enough, even in his mental condition, not to get into a pissing contest of who can beat whom in a fist fight.

I'd assume they are running all the scenarios and preparing him for it and what is the best response. I didn't say it's "way out of context," but I don't think he'll stoop down to Trump's level in a presidential debate. Then again, the dems' strategies have been pretty lol, so who knows.

It's not like Biden's trying to swing his base over to him. Why are you thinking the people who will either vote Biden or just not vote are not be smart enough to parse through the bullshit and make a responsible decision? If he does not debate, they will likely stay home.

anythings possible bro if it comes to blows it comes to blows

I don't know. I think that even good preppers may not go where I think Trump would be willing to go.

Would a prepper, in a mock debate say to Biden "you think you are the man to protect America, really? Could you even protect your own family? You kids? Your wife?"

Would anyone think a desperate Trump, if he thinks that a Biden meltdown is a key to his re-election would not go there, directly or in round about ways to try and make this extremely personal in a way that suggests Joe failed as a parent and husband?

I do think Trump goes there. Maybe with slightly more finesse, but potentially bold and in his face. It would not cost Trump one vote with his base who would cheer it on.

Biden should refuse to debate because he will lose the election if he does.

A fight would be an ugly joke, but Biden would win. No punches would need be landed. Trump's obesity would see him gasping for breath just from the elevated adrenaline such encounters cause. He might honestly drop dead just from the excitement.

Of course Trump goes there. Everyone knows that; his team especially.

You guys really think there's a chance they'll have a fist fight? Lmao.

Why do you think Biden will be so flustered by that? Also, why do you think Trump would even say that in a debate? He tends to use a lot of eye rolls and body language, but he rarely says anything that biting in that scenario. Think the best line I remember is when he replied to Jeb! who was going on about his mother and Trump then suggested she run instead. Trump says all sorts of crazy stuff when campaigning (didn't Ted Cruz's father kill Kennedy or something), but in the debates that stuff pretty much goes away. He will lie constantly about his accomplishments, and that is his sales routine that comes to him like breathing.

I have no idea why you think Trump is going to try to show that Biden, with his family backstory, is the failure in that regard. All Biden has to reply with is "should we ask your sister or niece for their opinions?" I will be genuinely surprised if it comes to that. As has been said, Biden has been in a bunch of debates already this year. He is hardly a superstar in them, but Trump is not as well. I suspect they will be more boring than anticipated for the current situation.

The republican strategy seems to be pretending Biden is the incumbent as they mimic 2016 with "Make America Great Again Again." Biden has "better baby back ribs" or whatever as his very weak slogan, so safe to say it is a weird year all around.

Yup
No.

But I do think Joe might get angry and visibly distraught enough to challenge him to one which will be used by the Trump campaign and others to suggest he cannot deal with the vigors of the office and the types of tactics CHina and Russia and others might use to get under his skin and make him over react.

While i agree Trump rarely sticks to a script and if he ad libs his talking points will be all over the place.

But i think his team will do their best to give him that script, and prepare him to stick to it.

They will let him know the importance of following it and seeking out that reply from Joe.

So I guess all we can say from there is 'we will see'.


In the end I maintain the equation in this debate is zero upside for Joe and nothing but downside and zero downside for Trump and nothing but upside.

Nothing Trump says or does will reduce his base support but he can certainly win over more moderates and independents.

Joe has the moderates and independents now, and only risks losing some while nothing he does will see him gain from Trumps base.


As a gambling man i never enter a contest with those odds and payouts.

I think your strategy of the prevent defense for Biden is not an ideal one. Inactivity on his part would be used against him hard and probably would be effective as a line of attack. It also is an approach that most people have little respect for as well, so if they used that then you might find some people choose not to vote for him as a result.

I think his going out there in a way that is Covid approved has the benefit of showing him keeping in touch with those that want to support him (even if it is purely to boot Trump). Trump has a significant enthusiasm advantage among his followers. They would accept being annexed bu Russia if Trump said it was what they should do. Biden does not have that level of enthusiasm so no need to try to compete on that, rather his job is just to show the "boot Trumpers" that they should stick with him.

Note, this has no impact on the non voting burn it down crowd who demand their minimal value non-vote be earned, but they do not really count in the equation. Biden doing nothing for 2 months risks losing a chunk of the small section that is still unsure which direction to go in November.

I also disagree with your nothing to win belief about the debates. If it ends up being a rather uneventful draw (what I suspect) then that puts another damper on the whole attack line Trump has used about Biden's mental capacities. If he cannot defeat an incapacitated person then thank the Trump team for creating that expectation. Note, if Trump went out there and literally just spoke in babyspeak with gagahs and googoos his hard core followers would think he still won the debate, so it is not the Trumpkins that really matter how it is perceived. Assuming Biden holds his own then that will be useful with the small section of undecideds.

The right has sort of gotten high on its own supply wrt to the “Zomg Biden has dementia” thing. Like they genuinely seem to believe it and are actually surprised when he does stuff exactly as well as he’s done over the last year+. It’s supposed to be a disingenuous political attack that you know isn’t accurate.

I also see plenty of supposedly non Trump but perhaps gullible people here and on twitter repeating the far right propaganda that Joe is hiding in a bunker cuz dementia, when he actually was giving speeches and even taking questions. They also will be shocked when he comes to the debate and does mediocre, like they were with his fine to above average acceptance speech. Same thing happened in the final 1 on 1 debate vs Sanders. If you told me exactly one of those debaters had dementia and wasn’t fit to be president, I wouldn’t be able to tell you who it was.

Update: Turns out my "hunch" wasn't that far off. Mark Cuban was interviewed by David Rubenstein on Bloomberg Television this weekend. After going through the boilerplate of how Mark grew up and became rich - along with his philosophy of life - Mr. Rubenstein asked the inevitable question: "Would you like to be President?" (I'm paraphrasing slightly.)

Responding to the question, Mark became noticeably excited. (He actually leaped up an inch or two from his chair. His facial expression changed markedly as this was a question he was obviously interested in answering.) Mark acknowledged that he had seriously considered running for President in 2016. He revealed that he had commissioned pollsters to gauge his popularity and assess his chances of winning. He stated that although he polled well among independent voters, there just wasn't enough support from Democratic and Republican voters to make a run for the Presidency viable. I sense what he was really saying is that he would have ran - if he thought he had a real shot at winning. Mr. Rubenstein had a follow up question asking Mark if he might run [for President] in 2024? He brushed this question aside with a curt "No!" but, in politics, four years is an eternity.

Being President is an intoxicating job - the kind of job people like Mark Cuban find alluring and hard to resist. Just because a pol (or potential pol) says "No!" today doesn't mean he (or she) won't change their mind tomorrow. In 1962, after his devastating loss to Pat Brown for Governor of California, (when pundits were proclaiming Nixon's political career was over), Nixon made his famous [embittered] statement to reporters: "You won't have Dick Nixon to kick around anymore!" Six years later Nixon, like a phoenix rising from the ashes, was elected President of the United States.

Possibly but recent history supports my view more.

Before Biden entered the primaries the 'idea of Biden' had him firmly in the lead against active campaigners in his party.

When he entered the race he instantly took a firm lead and many saw him as the presumptive nominee. They did not even want him engaging the others and instead addressing Trump directly and ONLY as if he was above debating them.

He did engage with them though and his stock fell, each and every time he did. He was on a consistent downward spiral to the point that talk about him making Super Tuesday due to cash running out was very real.


Lucky for him the press had mostly moved on. Mayor Pete, Bernie and the rest of the field drawing most of the 'live' talk and most mentions of Joe being how things fell apart.

In that time of lack of focus on him again the 'idea of Joe' as POTUS began to re-emerge. People start to feel fondling about him as the alternative to asruging Bernie. Not because he and Bernie were engaging but the opposite. Bernie was out campaigning and Joe was in his involuntary bunker due to no cash and little coverage.

And that, and that only, imo, is why the 'anyone but Bernie' could consolidate around Joe.

Ironically if Joe was in a stronger position heading towards Super Tuesday and more in the lime light, I don't think that could have happened.

Today we see the exact same parallels with Trump. The idea of Biden was crushing Trump when he was in the bunker. And I said, the more he campaigned the tighter this race will get from the start. He just has to hope Trump does not have enough time to catch right up.

This is my prediction. Even if we agree Biden debated well and arguably won, the race will still tighten and that is due to the equation I laid out. Biden cannot rise but Trump can.


I guess we will see.