I dont recall these societies at all but if you want to argue for enforcement it's not a medical insurance issue.

I think it is simply untrue. The end time mechanisms haven't changed and we're increasingly better equipped to handle them.

That is the same as an unvaxxed person paying their own risk. Horible but rhat's is how it works.

That's not paying anythign extra for the risks to other people or their burden on the system

I might not be following you here correctly but the price of added risk to society overall will be priced in as the cost is real and must be born by the industry and thus paid by someone.

So if you are saying they will socialize that aspect of the increased cost (cost of you might infect) and not attach it, in any way directly to the non vax'd, ok sure that might be the case. And only the direct risk to themselves will be reflected in that 'additional' premium cost. But I am not so sure they would not bump that amount up a little more (even if not admitted why) based on the overall cost to the society they are forced to carry.

Why are you so sure they would not?

Make no mistake, as the Insurance companies for profit model makes them consider and bill SOMEONE for all additional costs. They are not eating it.

1 - additional cost of unvax'd risk - billed to him as premium
2 - additional cost to those vax'd due t the unvax'd - billed to all generally as general premium increase??
3 - additional cost to system overall as those clogging up hospital beds with covid cause skyrocketing costs in other areas as other ailments go untreated and thus get worse requiring more cost and remediation after the fact - billed to all generally as general premium increase??


I am not sure that the unvax'd would not see an additional surcharge built in to their premiums for points 2&3 if the Insurance Companies have clear data showing the correlation between their choice to be unvax'd and the spiking costs in step 2&3. I understand they could entirely socialize those costs across the pool but not sure why Chez is so adamant no surcharge would be an option???

Interesting.

You think the dumbest amongst us have always been able to dictate as they are now what is the standard they will allow to impinge their Freedums, with a hard defiant stop?

I don't agree that was the case prior.

Or are you saying the Derps are not dictating that now in States? That the scientists and doctors are leading and forcing the compliance they require, Derps be damned??

If the cost to a vaxxed person goes up then so do their insurance premiums go up. That is the horrible insurance model

Hopefully they will socialise it and it will all be paid for by taxation. That's what we do in the UK and I fully support it (and complain about the downsides of them doing it badly to bring in anotehr thread).

I'm not sure they wont go down the route of charging for uninsurable risk in some hope that that might fund something. I am sure that's a hideous idea but hideous things happen. I do generally expect/hope the liberal/left to oppose such thing.

I dont think the uniformity of doing what we're told (or what's best) has ever existed.

I do think polorisation in our democracies has risen and that that is a very bad and dangerous thing. Maybe that's what youre saying. If so I'd agree that tackling it is a top political priority although not sure we would agree on the best way forward.

That would be why I said a couple times that the model used for other products (like auto insurance) would not work for health as a product in terms of whether a person can infect others in the same way that person can crash into people because they drink all the time.

I also said that the insurance companies will look at the extreme costs that unvaccinated people represent (to them in the form of insurance payouts) and adjust their pricing/payout structures accordingly so that choosing to not get a vaccine will come at a fairly high financial price if you require medical services. Has nothing to do with who that person may infect, rather it represents the additional cost they represent as a human that is choosing not to get a free vaccine that will prevent nearly all those costs.

Socialized medicine, which most anti-vaxxers would hate, has fewer ways of implementing this extra cost on them, hence the irony.

I get what chezlaw is saying about the specific of it - ie: it will not be a line item of $300 because you may infect other people, but in theory there will be a lot of actuarial data they analyze about the costs and expected costs and vaccine rates etc and their pricing will reflect that when they provide their insurance to the vaxxed or unvaxxed. It will just be a different pay scale (like smokers/ non smokers) with it likely being more specific (ie: they will not cover as much or any Covid costs for unvaccinated).

Travel insurance purchased in Canada has basically that clause. They will not cover Covid costs if you travel, though not sure if that is still for all people or now if it is just for unvaccinated, since the vaccine has been readily available.

Some insurers will only cover vaccinated, but you can find insurance if unvaccinated

I agree with that. it's standard insurance for risk.

Dont like it but that's the standard right wing model.

Hence the irony that the right wing in the USA, who favor it, are going for the most part to be the ones to pain the end because of it with regard to Covid.

i do not get why you kept writing about that.
no one did...

its about being responsible to the increase probability of unvaxxed ending at hospital when it was easily preventable...

to my understanding, as risk ( for insurance companies) goes higher, because you cashing in on your insurance by using it ending at the hospital , premiums should go up .

it as nothing to do about more chances of infecting others...
no idea where u get that idea.

That's where I thought the conversations started. That and refusing unvaxxed people access to A&E

If neither of thise sorts of things is being suggested then

Maybe I get easily confused by statements like:

For the record the surcharge I was referring to as 'perhaps they should consider' would be one based on data on how the unvax'd are impacting the 'Pool' in terms of added cost to all.

So I am suggesting there could theoretically be two elements to this charge. One is an assignment of added premium cost based on risk or additional, the second is an additional bump in that premium based on the assessed added cost to the pool.

And very unsually so worth adding to the record, that's what I thought you meant

I just got back from Iceland so I thought I would chime in on vaccine passports.

Everybody on the flight to and from Iceland needed to have a negative Covid test within 3 days of each flight. I thought this was very comforting as it meant it was unlikely any passengers were infected. My first thought was that Iceland had imposed that rule. But it turns out it is the US. First I had heard of it.

The type of test you had to take depended on whether or not you had been completely vaccinated. If you were you could take a rapid Antigen test. If not, then you had to take a PCR test (most of which aren't rapid and so the results might not get back in time to fly!). At the airport they did check vaccine paperwork.

I have seen discussions about whether or not to make vaccines mandatory for international travel - and there may be some countries that do. Ironically since the vaccines don't keep people from getting Covid it seems to me that it is not worth the effort. Just making the tests mandatory and mask wearing seems to be good enough.

I bring this up because if they do make vaccines mandatory for international flights (or even national flights) then we would all need essentially a "vaccine passport"... And Biden has said that he would not want the Federal Government to be in the business of keeping track of vaccines. NY State has an App that shows Covid vaccination (kind of like a vaccine passport) but as far as this trip my white vaccine card was good enough.

Its a kludge for not being able to do the more efficient method of holding people down while we inject them with the vaccine.

And so it begins, lol.

And this played out just as it should.


Vancouver Police called after customers refuse to show vaccine cards

It’s only been a few days since BC’s new Vaccine Card came into effect and already the Vancouver Police Department has been called to businesses after customers refused to show proof of vaccination.

...

He says there was no public safety risk and that “no enforcement was taken because the people eventually left without incident.”

Addison adds, “We trust that business owners and staff will do their best to resolve conflicts that arise over vaccine passports; however, we will attend if there is a public safety issue or a criminal act.”

This twitter account is real bad but I think the video is legit.

literally almost 100s of people

Wow, that type of behavior has never happened before in humanity...

When the G20 met in Toronto 10 years ago, scenes like that were called "Tuesday" as fringy protesters were jumping on cop cars and breaking windows of ice cream shops (which apparently represented the elites).

Here - pictures are real, and my sources do not suck like yours generally do. You tell me, are we watching a rebellion in them?

https://www.cp24.com/violent-black-b...otest-1.526840

https://gothamist.com/news/protester...ide-g20-summit

All the best.

Let me say this is the new world order plan to control us but freedom will be ours

Who the son sets free is free indeed

I think healthcare workers that are refusing these vaccines are getting screwed and betrayed the most .

I own a deli / convenience store across the street from a big hospital and was there at the height of the pandemic . I know there was a 2 week period where we felt like it was a war zone , there was 3 morgues outside the hospital at one point.
The faces of the doctors and nurses looked like they hadn’t slept in days but they still somehow came to work everyday

Recently talking to some of these unvaccinated doctors and nurses , they feel very slighted and betrayed . As to why they won’t get the vaccine , many feel like they acquired immunity during the pandemic and just don’t feel comfortable getting it .

I’m personally vaccinated but it upsets me that some of our so called heroes are now being vilified and getting kicked to the curb

The attitude of some towards health and care workers is pretty disgusting.

It's a hard problem because they do work with the most vulnerable people but the best approach is to work with them to address their concerns alongside patient safety. Accepting vaccinations as recommended should probably be a requirment for new recruits imo but existing staff have to be treated with great respect.

For some perspective: over 99% of medical care workers are getting vaccinated when there has been a mandate.

In NY only 70% of health care workers in elder care facilities had been vaccinated by mid August when the mandate scheduled for beginning of October went into effect. As of now, over 92% have been vaccinated. It is likely that many more will get vaccinated.

Health care workers are heroes. I believe that as well. But heroes don't get to make sh*t up when it can put the lives of those they are sworn to protect at risk.*

My daughter was an EMT during the pandemic before vaccines were available. She lived at home with my wife and I and our son (who has asthma). She dealt with Covid infected people every day. I was happy to take the risk (I was 64 when she started). As was my wife who has MS.

But once the vaccines were available had my daughter said that she wasn't going to take it because she thought she had developed an immunity, I would have booted her out of the house.

You can pretend that these heroes are victims. They are not. They are volunteers. They are entitled to not take a vaccine for any reason. They just aren't entitled to continue treating people unvaccinated. That is their choice.

* There is one caveat: In June of this year a study showed that of people who had contracted Covid a 2nd time, 96% had two comorbidities or more. So yes if the medical staffer had contracted Covid and did not have two or more comorbidities and still showed antibodies in a test, then I would be OK with that as an exception (assuming it is easy to assess comorbidities in a checkup). But they would have to have antibody tests about once a week as well as daily (?) rapid Covid tests. I would actually hope that there would be regular Rapid Covid testing for people who were vaccinated as well.