I dont like Bernie

Well conservatives don't threaten their (very high) sense of self-worth, leftists do.

Ok, this whole discussion of defining each other, whether relevant comments are serious or sarcasm, has gotten me tired of giving warnings and deleting posts. Can we please stop insulting each other and just move on to something related to this thread topic?

This post should be stickied

I typically only have an issue with it when someone's using the strategy to avoid answering a question.

Yeah, I think we knew that, but it was nice that he finally confirmed it:

Thanks for this. It could come in handy in the future when you whine about how other people are always attacking you, and how you never attack anyone. I think you have some strange belief that it's OK if you're attacking wide swaths of people without calling anyone out specifically (it's not), but here you managed to attack both the usual group, and individuals as well. Stay classy, Victor, stay classy.


Edit to add: Dammit, just noticed gansta's post so I removed much of mine; hopefully what's left is OK as it responds to a post addressed to me and then is about Victor's definition and treatment of "liberals", which I think is still on topic. But if it has to go, so be it and my apologies if it does.

I think what's not being said that needs to be said is that a police state is a large source of crime. You lock away so many people, with or without trial, because it's a way of enforcing a social hegemony, and because it's profitable, and central to this whole process is a gigantically funded police. With less police, there would be less crime. That's the way out of this, the opposite of the societal trap that's been sprung by the prison system on the unsuspecting american public.

This thread does have "liberal" in the title, so determining everyone's definitions of it is certainly on topic. It's the labeling of each other with insults that was getting out of hand and not advancing the discussion.

there was nothing on topic about the question posed by d2 and it was obv that calling Trolly a liberal was not an insult while also objectively true. he would proudly identify as a liberal.

asking for a grand thesis on what constitutes liberalism is bad faith trolling and worthy of more derision than I feel like expressing.

the topic is why liberals now call their most hated enemies "leftists" rather than conservatives.

luckbox touched on it

I would also add that it is because the far right has lost a lot of juice and Trump doesnt seem like much of a threat at the moment.

and now that Biden is in power and has moved farther to the right, it is clear that liberals now agree with almost all Republican policy positions from the last 40 years and Biden is either preserving them or enacting them.

My question was how you define the word "liberal", since you use it so often. Not how wikipedia defines it, how you define it. Seems pretty on topic.

This is the only way out as I alluded to in this thread or another

Someone who supports liberal use (that means a lot ) of govt power and funds.

It’s the opposite of a conservative (that means not a lot) of govt power and funds.



Since we continue to have large govt and large wars and a large police state, all funded by expensive taxes, well that’s liberal govt at its finest


Did you not know that?

Over time, the meaning of liberalism began to diverge in different parts of the world. According to the Encyclopædia Britannica: "In the United States, liberalism is associated with the welfare-state policies of the New Deal programme of the Democratic administration of Pres. Franklin D. Roosevelt, whereas in Europe it is more commonly associated with a commitment to limited government and laissez-faire economic policies."[30] Consequently, the ideas of individualism and laissez-faire economics previously associated with classical liberalism are key components of modern American conservatism and movement conservatism, and became the basis for the emerging school of modern American libertarian thought.[31][better source needed] In this American context, liberal is often used as a pejorative.[32]

Yellow is the political colour most commonly associated with liberalism.[33][34][35] In Europe and Latin America, liberalism means a moderate form of classical liberalism and includes both conservative liberalism (centre-right liberalism) and social liberalism (centre-left liberalism).[36] In North America, liberalism almost exclusively refers to social liberalism. The dominant Canadian party is the Liberal Party, and the Democratic Party is usually considered liberal in the United States.[37][38][39] In the United States, conservative liberals are usually called conservatives in a broad sense.[40][41]

But you were asked for just your definition, not a grand thesis. You purposely exaggerating what others say to make them sound ridiculous seems more like trolling to me than the question itself.

books have been written on the subject and you think I would be capable of summarizing it to something he find acceptable?

you actually think his question was in good faith and not an attempt to find something to criticize and nitpick?

regardless, I answered it 3 times. I agree with the wikipedia definition of liberal.

for example, both USA parties are liberal. the entire Dem party and about 90% of the Repubs are liberals.

Americans are too dumb to understand that both parties are the exact same system

It's just that you're wrong and the smug ideas that protect your from reality are false.

One of us is wrong.

Stupid and ignorant people think you’re right

Smart and educated people think I’m right.

The below was perfectly sufficient, thanks.

Well, all I have is all of observable reality on my side.

Yep you forgot about abortion.

He did forget about abortion. A fundamental healthcare right that makes him obviously wrong. Since we're on a forum full of men, this point needs to be said over and over.

Are you sure you aren't just looking for any excuse to justify supporting war mongers though?

No, I don't think that's it.


I generally see foreign policy very differently that domestic policy. It's easy to see the difference in ideology between dems and republicans when you look at their domestic policy. They have so many chances to enact laws and deal with the consequences. You can control for the variables on a domestic policy in ways you cannot with foreign policy. When dems enact free lunch programs it's a pretty straight forward thing. They find the money and pay for the food. Or republicans lower age requirements to work in factories and then more kids are working in factories.

Basically there is just the president with foreign policy and trying to predict what they will be like is hard, dem or rep. Many thought Biden would be a pro war guy, but he's the most anti war president we've had in a very long time. Bush Jr ran on being anti-war, if i recall correctly, and then 9/11 happened. Which did not justify his 2 wars, but it wasn't something people had on their mind in 2000.

the left and the right both agree mostly on abortion, the left just lies and says otherwise.

I think abortion is a universal human right. If the left thought that they wouldve made it their goal to get that legislation passed.

Instead they focused on killing brown people in the middle east, bailing out the rich and then giving the rich tax cuts.




Carter then Trump were the most antiwar presidents. Biden fueled a war against russia, as any cold war era politician would be expected to do

This is some wild stuff to say. Do you have friends in your life who are women who are into politics? Can you please tell them that the left and right both mostly agree on abortion and see what they say. Do so in person, I think you should deal with getting laughed at in person.

Hold it did you guys not say Obama could not codify roe v wade because some Democrats would vote for it ?