Well, you would say that, what with your lucrative sideline in those banging "there are 2 genders" t-shirts you also proudly wear.

By the way, loved that pic - cracking tits! Which of the two were you again?

Yes there is some confusion, that's why I asked a question.

Sorry, that was actually uke. I exchanged two posts with him on the topic then he disappeared and you replied to one of my posts that was directed at him and I failed to realize I was now exchanging posts with a different person.

Thanks for the clarification. I keep deleting the references to games and concentrated on marathons because breaking the runners into different exclusive categories makes it more inclusive imo.

There is some misrepresentation going on here, I too bet on esports.

It is true that scarlett is one of the best sc2 players of all time. She is an outlier in many respects , including being only one of like 3 in the top 20 outside south korea.

After that the discussion seems very misinformed. Most of the top female players are biological women and biological women have an advantage in sponsorship. The second most accomplished female esports player is probably lion, a cisgender women who won the hearthstone world championships against a field largely comprised of men.


WIM is a comparatively low title in chess; many cisgender women have received the title of grandmaster. I am unaware of a trans woman who plays at the same level as the best cisgender female chess players. For example Judit Polger and Yifan hip have eli ratings 400 points higher than the required rating to achieve a wim title. I am unaware of any trans women who competes anywhere near the level of those two cisgender women.

We also don't see 'spirit of competition' brought up anywhere I think. And I think it would be revealing for some as well. Why should I as a male, who decides to be a woman, need to compete with the woman, when I could compete with the men?

If there a woman in tennis that could compete at the top mens level, would be questioning her genitals? Would it not be cheered on? Would she have qualms cause its not representing her gender sport category? She wouldn't feel pride if she won because she isn't a man?

If she claimed winning made her more a man we would get upset?

In the name of sport wouldn't a woman or transgender woman want to win at the highest level they can compete at?

I'm sure they would want to do that.
There have been several women in the last 25 years who have even played on college football teams.

But the current athletes causing controversy are ones who previously competed on men's teams and didn't do that well.

A lot of people are critical of women's chess because given that there's no difference between men and women in intelligence, celebrating someone for being the best woman player is patronizing and therefore sexist.

I don't necessarily agree with this sentiment, since physical stamina and testosterone levels do influence chess performance (albeit not as much as in other sports). However celebrating someone for being the best transgender chess player, especially when they've only reached the level of a decent amateur player, is patently absurd.

At large scholastic chess tournaments, the male to female ratio is maybe 3:1 (getting exponentially worse as you move up in grades), and the females are roughly as good as the males on average, at least in elementary school.

At small-medium tournaments (adults and kids), the male to female ratio is like 20:1, or worse. Plenty of tournaments with zero females.

At large tournaments, the male to female ratio is maybe 15:1. These are tournaments big enough to which the best female players in the area might travel. The women are roughly equal or slightly better on average than the men, if anything, similar to how women at live poker tables are better than the men, on average -- they're the ones willing to put up with the bullshit of the men, and as such are more likely to be serious about the game.

On the internet, who knows, but women are certainly far more represented than they are in live chess.

This effect reverses at the very top. There's only 1 woman above 2600 FIDE, last I checked, Hou Yifan (Polgar has BEEN retired). Looked it up, she's just outside the top 100.

Many of chess' big events having an Open and a Women's section helps and hurts. It helps with the spirit of inclusion, it hurts because the women play fewer games against very strong opponents and progress less quickly because of it.

I've seen SO MUCH creepiness at chess tournaments. You have to understand that this already isn't exactly the most socially-advanced group out there. Seen drunk 50-year-old IMs and GMs hit on 15-year-old girls. Seen them seek out any and every female chess player in the area for "private lessons". Former elite GM Nigel Short has, let's say, a dubious history with women. Not hard to imagine how this might turn them off towards live chess tournaments.

It seems pretty clear to me that social factors effectively stop most girls/young women from advancing in this game far more so than biology, or whatever.

There are a few opportunities for female chess players to get an online following.

I've played a number of games with Alexandra Botez on chess.com. This lady and her sister have quite a following, despite being well-outside the top 1000 players. They stream regularly. If they weren't at least semi-attractive women, they wouldn't be 1/20th as popular as they are. Plenty of money in appealing to horny, socially dislocated weirdos.

I last played her a week ago in 3-minute, won, and then got to watch her comment on the game (on a delay) on her Twitch page. It's pretty cool to be one of her opponents when she's streaming. She parlayed her fame into getting into the big, streamed Hustler poker game with Magnus Carlsen and YouTube celebrities (in which she won pretty big).

The sexism in the chess world still clearly benefits the men disproportionately, but here you go, fwiw.

agreed that this is not entirely accurate and people tend to underestimate the positive influence of testosterone is all competitive things

it's well established scientifically that testosterone plays a major positive role in giving competitive edges to things involving risk taking

this is why a lot of things that should be equal in competition between the sexes from video games to race car driving is not

men account for 62% of all driving and yet only cause 58% of all accidents

this is significant because men are significantly bigger risk takers in driving and receive far more speeding tickets and traffic violations in general than women do - yet they are still less likely than a woman who drives much more conservatively to get into an accident - we do a lot more stupid and risky stuff but at the end of the day crash the car less often

while men are more likely to get into fatal accidents, that is largely due to the fact that 80% of alll alcohol related driving fatalities are caused by men

men are far less conservative in their actions - this is scientifically correlated to testosterone

if we go to the edge cases of the top talent add skill and good decision making to the increased tolerance of risk then we're naturally going to get at the top levels mostly men at things such as race car driving, esports, & chess

point being you take two people where everything is cognitively and physically identical, but one has a higher level of testosterone, that person is going to have an edge in nearly everything because when their opponent sees 4 possible moves in their next turn, the person with more testosterone would see 5

it's also physical as well - if you take 10 college sprinters and measure their testosterone levels, you can use that to predict in which order they'll finish with uncanny accuracy

i know you want it to be this way, but it's simply not true, you average female has an elo 10 points lower than your average male

I wouldn't have thought the average chess player would be rated at all.

it came up earlier in the chess discussion and i researched it forgot the context but it was either among all rated players or an entire population of either chess or lichess

He's right but it's due to selection bias. Chess being more of a male dominated activity, the only girls who continue in organized tournaments are those pursuing the game seriously who have some degree of talent. Whereas there are many less talented males who play as a hobby.

don't you realize how much stronger this makes my case becauseif were getting a selection bias of thinning out the weaker players to only sample the stronger players then your average female would be artificially high?

in the analysis of male elo it includes the mouth breathers whereas the female sample does not

in your desperate attempt to refute reality - you ended up not only agreeing with me but ultimately doubling down upon my own position

this is no different from when before there were trans athletes competing as women, there was that insane argument that they wouldn't have any advantage, most of you no longer cling to that lie because the facts against it now that we have national champion trans athletes is too damning, so now you cling to new absurd arguments like women's sports isn't about finding competitive balance but to provide a safe space away from toxic masculinity

honestly, you guys don't even care about logic and reality, just nothing but pure confirmation bias - you know x must be true so you'll only look at points of view that confirm this belief

the irony is rich because this crowd generally defaults to a "you must watch fox news" as a standard retort

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

10 elo is basically just noise.

for 2 individuals yes

for entire population, not in the slightest - especially if you consider the earlier theory that the less skilled women never compete to even be rated in the first place

i guess house odds in vegas are also just noise, let's go bankrupt monte carlo uke

Are you all still debating this under the pretense that there are any trans women competing at the same level as the top cisgender women in chess? Or do you want to move on to some other game where a trans woman won an important tournament so you can make the obviously statistically incorrect claim that trans women are taking over women’s sports and gaming?

And, no one has shown why that would be a bad thing, similar arguments were made to exclude black people from sports many years ago.

bryce we haven't even yet had an women's division competition yet which included a trans female has competed

the very first one only just now got approval to play with the women

this is literally no different than arguing in 2021, when the ncaa first allowed trans females to compete as women that no trans female would ever be a national champion because it hadn't happened yet

but just one year into the program we already have a trans national champion

it hasn't even started yet bryce, there is no "precedent" of "it's not happening it's not real" because it hasn't even yet begun

people made the same argument in 2021 that trans women wouldn't end up dominating women's sports and that was laughably incorrect

or better phrased we watch a couple sit down at a restaurant and order food and the waiter walks away with the order, I say "watch they are going to eat dinner" and meanwhile you say that will never happen and use the evidence of "the waiter hasn't even brought them their food yet, it's never going to happen"


and i'm sorry, but it's also incredibly dishonest and out of touch for you to equate this to segregation and jim crow

None of this addresses or correctly states any of the things I wrote.

For example I did not equate the arguments for excluding trans women from womens sports to segregation or jim crow. Rather, I equated the arguments for excluding trans women from women’s sports to the arguments for excluding black americans from major sports leagues. The similarities between those two lines of arguments are obvious to me.

Here is a link to a relevant article about the “talent” myth being weaponized against black athletes.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...rts-cam-newton

The idea that trans athletes would “takeover” women’s sports has no basis in science. And even if they did have a slight advantage in a particular sport, so what?

bryce, i find it extremely naive and disrespectful to equate this to the segregation of black people