Don't know about the world but in the UK women are far more likely to be murdered than someone who is trans.

You sure like to waste a lot of time and energy, over and over again, arguing about opinions that are different than yours.

Aren't men far likelier to get murdered than women? In the US men are about 4 times as likely to get murdered as women are.

I believe that is his point, that social/fitness sports have greater overall participation than do truly competitive sports teams.

In the US, there are intra mural sports at universities, even small colleges without competitive teams, where groups of students play against other students from the same school. These are often mixed gender teams. There are also teams of people who work at a company, who play sports (softball is the most common I believe) against teams from other small businesses, or other teams who have the same employer (if it is a large company). These are also usually mixed gender. Sometimes they will have a rule that the same number of each gender must be on each team, so teams with more men won't dominate teams with more women. I don't know anything about the rate of participation in these activities compared with actual professional and collegiate sports where participants receive payment or scholarships and usually have spectators, but I believe these are the kinds of activities Cuepee is speaking of. Not sure if people not in the US or Canada have been understanding what he is referring to.

If I'm incorrect, Cuepee is welcome to correct me.

Yes which is why:


No, because:



and





Not MASSIVE, /discussion.

Yes but the culture is very different in the UK, any man can walk into an amateur level sports team playing football cricket or rugby at a level that matches their skill level, its harder with rugby and cricket but is incredibly easy with football with which there are masses of teams playing every Saturday and Sunday in organised leagues. There also tons of amateur level rugby teams and cricket teams, its nothing to do with being professional.

Universities might host some of the activities you are talking about, but given only about 3.6% of the adult population is at University in the UK, and say if we say hugely generous 25% of those do some kind of co ed sports thing, that is less than 1% of the population involved in that activity.

[ ] Massive.

The company softball thing will have even smaller numbers, that is a very obscure niche activity in the UK.

So just to add to the above.

Kingston University, organises formal activities for its students.

QP in a vey lol way hangs his whole argument on that.

The Students are free of course to organise their own activities.

Which they do, and as such there is a single sex womens team at Kingston University.

https://www.kingstonstudents.net/gro...men-s-football

So the idea that sports at Universities are near exclusive (80%) mixed is it self totally false.

Well he may be correct about the US and Canada if that is where he's from but he's definitely incorrect with regards to the UK, and that is what is being discussed.

I was wondering if I was the only one to see "social contagion" and "rapid onset gender dysphoria" pop up everywhere in anti-trans places, but this article sheds light on the phenomena of a "huge increase" of people of talking about trans people as a "Social Contagion": https://www.technologyreview.com/202...der-dysphoria/

I talk a lot about patterns of rhetoric, because I think it is important. This is separate from the validity of any individual specific claim, it is about building larger narratives around trans people that pervade our approaches. One of those patterns of rhetoric I've talked about it casting trans people as fake. This whole "Social Contagion" bit just rings so much as trying to be the cool sciency way to suggest that lots of trans people are largely just fake. No wonder if springs up so much. Cuepee is joined by other auspicious company that is using the same theory:

I rather love the juxtaposition here, because it shows both the large scale how the "Social Contagion" theory is used as justification in the ever-growing string of anti-trans bills but also comes down to individuals and the trans kids not accepted by their own mom's.

Of course this premise is being recycled. A very prominent component of the homophobia of the 90s and 2000s was the whole idea that exposure to things like gay teachers was going to turn kids gay. I don't recall that specific "Social Contagion" buzzword in that era, but this was the idea nevertheless.

Basically got it.

My point was that mix gender recreational sport is huge world wide. Arguably the biggest voluntary thing people do, outside voting participation that I can think of.

O.A.F.K questioned that generally and then threw in,his view about it not being true in the UK. I simply stood by it being the case world wide (and quickly showed substantiation for that view) while saying I would be 'surprised' if the UK was an outlier.

That some think university is the only place Recreational sport takes is just wrong. It takes place in grade schools, middle schools and all the way thru to Uni and in the COmmunity generally. And as i showed in those links, most activities are generally open to mixed participation and very few are restricted.

I mean, fine, if the UK is an outlier (I still don't think it is to the degree they do based on those links), but so what. Then I say 'ok I am surprised'.

Maybe so, but you were completely misunderstanding what was being referred to.

This whole subtopic is pretty pointless though. I can't imagine anyone seriously thinks that the main reason that women have separate sports teams is because "men hate losing to women".

uke you do realize you "used that same theory' of social contagion as well right. I am pretty sure you spread it upthread before I ever mentioned it.

Which of course nobody claimed.....

I love this thread, so much nuanced discussion!

that is exactly what Trolly was pushing.

he was saying it was because men cannot stand losing to women, and to ask women about it, when we were discussing the reason why women's divisions originated. He continually pushed that view.

I am only now seeing this post.

Seems confusing to me as I feel you are arguing that Trans individuals are best suited to recreational sport but there may be some areas of Competitive sport where they can compete?

that would be a position that largely mirrors my own and against the more absolutist types ones I have been fighting against. If so, welcome to team QP.

I rather doubt this, but feel free to quote me. I've barely posted in this specific thread, but a search of my user name seems to indicate the only other time I've used "social contagion" on this forum was when quoting 57 on red, which should be an alarm bell on the use of the term in and of itself.

Regardless, the critique of proponents of "social contagion" established in the quoted article stand.

The quote is your post before mine.

You are pushing an argument that if we simply quote articles where psychologists and other professionals are discussing any aspect of the potential of social contagion, that we then are amongst those using that theory. Even if we have taken no position on it.

The idea that merely quoting others discussing it attaches a culpability to us.

Well you are quoting us discussing others, discussing it, thus you are doing the same thing. You too are guilty 'using that theory' if that is all it takes.

I'm not quite following. I quoted you taking a position, did I not?

Regardless, even if you are totally neutral on the "Social Contagion" hypothesis, and merely quoting that others hold it, I think the article I shared is a helpful critique of that hypothesis. The real takeaway here in my mind isn't any specific scientific claim, but observing the phenomena of how this particular single study blew up in anti-trans circles and the narrative elements that this entails. Hopefully you are now more informed and able to take a position about how much we need to focus on this "social contagion" aspect!

I am neutral. It is a question that others are asking and that I think itis one they need to answer then.

What you are saying is 'there is more than one view on it' which is fine. That goes into working towards the answer.

Might want to catch yourself up with your brethren's posts before saying something like this.

UK and Europe in general dont have these classifications for schools.

I can also assure you that mixed gender sporting activity is not the norm in most team sports at under 16 education in the UK, yea when UK children are in primary school ( as we classify it) in infant school (as we classify it) there might be some kick a ball around the playground for very young ages, but thats it, maybe rounders.

Stuff like PE and running is, but not team sports.

Also I dont think its really a safe assumption to assume that UK is an outlier with regards adult participation in mixed gender team sports, what happens in the UK is much more likely to be similar to what happens in Europe, than what happens in Canada/USA.

Sure Universities might formally offer some dumbed down diluted team mixed gender team sports that have no league structure, but students organise their own single gender activates as has been shown also.

The community generally as you call it offers a ton of single sex team sports, mixed gender really not so much as several people from the UK have tried to explain to you.

Keep lecturing people about their countries though, its obvious you know those countries better than they do because you googled Kingston University.

Every google search i look at says you are the type of person to say 'if I am unaware of it, it does not exist'.

I took two seconds to see if indeed softball, slowpitch was not a thing in the UK and voila. It is ALWAYS amongst the first hits.






If i was to take the time to go thru all of these recreational sports listed as being across the UK, most of which I know offer mixed participation in Canada/US I would bet I would the same in the UK. But what is the point as you will hand wave it all away as I am sure you will do with slow pitch above.

Humans like to interact in casual play, especially sport, with the opposite sex. Again I would be shocked if the UK is such an outlier in that regard and Slowpitch above tells me they are not.

And since I see that Badminton is one of the top sports played in the UK along with Tennis, do you concede that almost certainly mixed play in recreational clubs will be almost certain? Or do I need to look it up?

This isn't CNN. We don't have to pretend there are two equally valid sides and maintain some faux neutrality about it. As the article documents, there is a whole right-wing anti-trans conspiracy that took a single study (whose author says has been misinterpreted and which has been decimated in methodological review) and spun it out into a whole narrative about "social contagions" of trans youth. It connects deeply to latent narratives about trans people (gay people before them) being fake and being convertible by teachers hence why we get "Don't say gay" bills citing this. This isn't both-sides-ism. This isn't "there is more than one view on it".
I think it is worth deeply reflecting on your own role. I don't know how you found this anti-trans anonymous twitter account with 5k followers tweeting about social contagion, but it is worth I think seeing how those dots are connected back to the larger picture, and also how your own actions amplifying those types of messages which is not a neutral act, and especially not with your choice of language: "I do think the USA...will need to focus more on social contagion". Maybe a good analogy would be sharing the language with racists who are making some sort of faux-intellectual debate about I dunno IQ in black people or something, and uncritically sharing that message with calls that you think we should answer these questions is just not a neutral act. You might be ignorant of the backstory, but it still isn't neutral. Just-Asking-Questions guy is a meme for a reason; don't be that guy.

Regardless, hopefully you now are aware of some things you were not and will be less likely to give this narrative such significance when it is spouted by 57 on Red or SimpleRick or twitter.

Your goal post shifting is insane here.

I never said it did not exist, I just said not many people do it, now sure the official website of the sport might make some claims, because that is its function, but maybe 1 in 100 UK adults does this, maybe 1% being generous.

As regards Tennis/badminton, if you actually read posts, you will see I already said that it probably the only activity in which there is a degree of gender mixing, but we have been discussing team sports.

Im telling you something, as someone who lives in a country to someone who is simply projecting assumptions in a frankly amazingly ignorant way, mixed gender team sports is not massive in the UK, it just isnt.

I would post all masses of data supporting this again, but you just ignore it because QP gonna QP.