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Transgender issues IV (excised from "In other news")

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10-14-2022 , 09:59 AM

#51

IAMTHISNOW

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Wat?

Its fluid precisely because its a social construct, the fluidity of gender is just an extension of the social construct argument.

10-14-2022 , 10:01 AM

#52

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IAMTHISNOW

Wat?

Its fluid precisely because its a social construct, the fluidity of gender is just an extension of the social construct argument.

Sounds like a non-explanation.

10-14-2022 , 10:05 AM

#53

IAMTHISNOW

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In simple terms its either biological and fixed or a social construct and fluid, e.g. relative.

10-14-2022 , 10:08 AM

#54

campfirewest

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IAMTHISNOW

Wat?

Its fluid precisely because its a social construct, the fluidity of gender is just an extension of the social construct argument.

10-14-2022 , 10:11 AM

#55

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IAMTHISNOW

In simple terms its either biological and fixed or a social construct and fluid, e.g. relative.

There is plenty of fluidity in biology-- biological traits, and especially those of a psychological nature, generally exist on spectrums.

10-14-2022 , 10:21 AM

#56

IAMTHISNOW

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

There is plenty of fluidity in biology-- biological traits, and especially those of a psychological nature, generally exist on spectrums.

Sure, but you are either fixed at birth in a particular state, gender etc, on that spectrum, or that very fixing is actually a social construct and your gender is thus fluid across your lifetime.

The meaning of gender fluidity is precisely that the individual determines what gender he/she/they/etc want to identify as and this can change over time.

10-14-2022 , 10:28 AM

#57

Doctor Zeus

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

There are people who claim that gender is fluid, and there are people who claim that it is a social construct-- but I've never heard it claimed before that it is both, and the ideas seem somewhat contradictory.

Language is a social construct. It is also fluid.

I think thats self-evident.

So social constructs can be fluid.

Is there a reason that gender is special or different to language?

Seems clear to me that gender as a concept is a social construct, and, someone might be fluid within the bounds of that social construct.

I see no contradiction

10-14-2022 , 10:29 AM

#58

IAMTHISNOW

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Yea gender fluidity simply means someone choosing what gender they themselves choose to identify as and this being fluid over time.

You cant get to this without gender first being a social construct.

10-14-2022 , 10:34 AM

#59

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Originally Posted by Doctor Zeus

Language is language and it's not a social construct in the way that sociologists think about social constructs-- it can contain social constructs but it's not itself one.

There are many reasons why language is different to gender. Language is real for one.

10-14-2022 , 10:39 AM

#60

Doctor Zeus

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

OK, well, specify it down to natural human languages.

- Natural human languages are a social construct
- How an individual uses those languages is fluid

- Gender is a social construct
- How people sit within that can change

I don't see how you think they can't sit together?

Why do they seem at odds?

10-14-2022 , 10:40 AM

#61

IAMTHISNOW

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Language is a social construct in the way sociologists think about social constructs and language itself is fundamental to the idea of social constructs.

10-14-2022 , 10:41 AM

#62

Doctor Zeus

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IAMTHISNOW

Language is a social construct in the way sociologists think about social constructs and language itself is fundamental to the idea of social constructs.

Some languages aren't social constructs.

Coding languages are languages that aren't social constructs

Its a relevant point.

10-14-2022 , 10:42 AM

#63

IAMTHISNOW

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Doctor Zeus

Some languages aren't social constructs.

Coding languages are languages that aren't social constructs

Its a relevant point.

Not really that relevant, but ok.

10-14-2022 , 10:46 AM

#64

Doctor Zeus

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Originally Posted by IAMTHISNOW

Not really that relevant, but ok.

it was probs quite pedantic.

I thought I was being clear if unambiguous but hey...language is fluid

10-14-2022 , 10:52 AM

#65

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IAMTHISNOW

Language is a social construct in the way sociologists think about social constructs

Only in a Whorfian sense and this is very much debated. I'm a believer but it's not not controversial.

10-14-2022 , 11:07 AM

#66

uke_master

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Originally Posted by chillrob

No, I didn't think of that, because I was talking about myself, and my parents were not a gay couple. And a gay couple can't be both a genetic parent.
Not embarrassing though, and you left out answering the question I actually asked you. How do people with two parents of the same gender normally refer to them so someone who knows them can figure out who they are talking about? I don't know the answer to that.

your inability to think about anything behind your personal situation is kind of the problem. As any gay parents could tell you, it is pretty common to use slightly different terms like “dad” for one and “father” for the other. Or not. It’s absolutely zero big deal. In our house we call two of our three grandmas “gramma [name]” and the other “omi” because she is German.

There is no need to magically reinvent words.

10-14-2022 , 11:10 AM

#67

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IAMTHISNOW

Language is a social construct in the way sociologists think about social constructs and language itself is fundamental to the idea of social constructs.

Language is a set of rules that helps us take morphemes (words and parts of words) and make useful utterances out of them

It is universal amongst humans and something that is engrained within our psyches. Social constructs are just ideas imparted from society about how either the nature of reality or how one should live. But just because both come from society does not make them both social constructs.

Football also comes from society but we do not consider it a social construct. The idea that if one wants to prove one's worth one has to excel in sports would however be one.

10-14-2022 , 11:14 AM

#68

IAMTHISNOW

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Sport is of course a social construct indeed a very typical one, and we do consider it one.

Language as an object might not be a social construct, but this is basically irrelevant, all meaning is established via social construct and language is just a means of communicating meaning.

This is anthropology 101 and its not even close to debatable.

10-14-2022 , 11:19 AM

#69

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Doctor Zeus

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking me, but it was always my impression that when people called gender 'fluid' that they were making a biological/cog psych argument that gender is a real thing that exists on some sort of spectrum, and that when people called gender a social construction that they were making a soc based argument with the implication that gender is not so real-- hence the contradiction in the idea that gender is a fluid construction.

I understand now what you and Iamthis are arguing, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around exactly what you're saying and the implications of your position.

10-14-2022 , 11:23 AM

#70

IAMTHISNOW

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People deciding arbitrarily to kick an inflated object between two wooden sticks as a social activity = not a social construct, seems to indicate very poor understanding of the concept of social construct.

Its harder to think of a more concrete social construct.

10-14-2022 , 11:28 AM

#71

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Originally Posted by IAMTHISNOW

Football is a game.

The idea that it's not a Sunday night in October without a football game on TV would be a social construction.

It's not too hard to understand.

Games cannot be social constructions. Only ideas.

Language is not an idea. It is used to communicate ideas.

10-14-2022 , 11:33 AM

#72

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Originally Posted by IAMTHISNOW

I wish my University had this idea of language because I could have avoided taking formal logic in the math department.

10-14-2022 , 11:33 AM

#73

IAMTHISNOW

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Games are of course social constructs.

Hilarious to claim otherwise.

Every single word is a social construct, as are all symbols.

Symbols are social constructs and language is a system of symbols.

10-14-2022 , 11:41 AM

#74

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IAMTHISNOW

Games are of course social constructs.

Hilarious to claim otherwise.

Every single word is a social construct, as are all symbols.

Symbols are social constructs and language is a system of symbols.

No. Your definition of social construct is too broad and you're stripping it of its meaning when you attempt to apply to anything and everything that humans produce.

And no, not all words are social constructs. Find me a language without the equivalent of 'not', 'or' or 'if' and perhaps I'll reassess that.

10-14-2022 , 11:43 AM

#75

IAMTHISNOW

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I can find you languages that use those words in numerous other ways then there "formal" usage.

English for example.

However pointing to some conditional clauses is just nittery.

Its not too broad, its simply the accepted usage.

You are the one with some weird set of perverse exclusions.

Excluding sport/games from social construction is simply absurd.

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