In another thread, t_d deleted a thread in which I was flippant toward another Mod (King Spew, who is the "King" of flippancy himself, ironically). Apparently even certain Mods are a protected class.

I should add that I respect t_d's decision to delete my post re King Spew. But, I'm pretty sure that King Spew would have had a witty rejoinder that would have put me in my place.

i don't think someone who lacks basic self awareness can even know where his place is

I agree, you are quite unlikely to know where your place is.

This isn't much of an argument for an enduring rule. As time passes, and transgender children become much more accepted by their parents, the image and reality of the transgender teen as disadvantaged is going to change. Also, at least in the U.S., most women's sports are not dominated by people who had the benefit of expensive private academies. (I will grant that tennis and gymnastics are exceptions.)

I don't think that the rank and file transgender athlete will be a particular problem for women's high school sports, especially team sports. After all, the sheer number of transgender people is relatively low, and it isn't as if all transgender people are interested in sports or have aptitude for sports.

The issue, if there is one, would be at the highest levels of women's athletics -- Olympics, WNBA, etc. Athletic outliers can occur in any population, however small, and I could see a situation in which that outlier makes a mockery of a women's sport. For example, there is no biological reason why a transgender athlete could not be a highly coordinated, 6'11 center. And a highly coordinated, 6'11 center would make a mockery of the WNBA.

If a transgender athlete achieved a level that almost certainly would not have been possible for a non-transgender athlete, I think that would be a negative development for women's sports in general, and transgender athletes in particular.

I also could see a universe in which authoritarian regimes aggressively steer transgender teens into particular sports because of a perceived advantage. This is impossible to imagine in the U.S., but not at all hard to imagine in China.I also think this would be bad for women's sports in general, and transgender athletes in particular.

I'm not sure what to do about these issues, and I am reluctant to let the outlier scenario dictate the rule. But I do think it is an issue that will arise eventually.

None of this matters, of course, if going through puberty as a male confers no athletic advantage whatsoever. But I am dubious about that proposition, especially for sports like basketball and volleyball, where height can make a big difference.

*grunch*

Is “white cis dudes being less uptight” the easy solution?

If you think that the outlier scenario I describe would be an issue only for uptight white guys, I disagree. That view seems rooted in the outdated notion that elite female athletes care less about being the best, and being recognized as the best, than elite male athletes do.

This isn't A League of Their Own. Dottie isn't playing baseball as a hobby.

you mean them bishes don't cry mid game anymore and worry about injuring dem ovaries or accidentally poppin their virtue?

I still feel like it’s uptight cis dudes driving this discussion and not elite female athletes.

I know people like to hand wave away slippery slope arguments but in this case the threat of that is very clear.

We know via history certain nations have institutionalized cheating to try and gain an advantage in sports. Literally State sanctioned and implemented cheating such as steroid abuse.

You cannot know that and ignore the possibility of a Nation exploiting this, especially as Trans rule are pushed to not require any hormones or surgery and only a 'belief based declaration' to flood the zone with transwomen to dominate all levels of female sport.

You cannot ignore that countries were willing to do that with steroids and thus would not likely find exploiting trans status in the same way.

This could certainly create a playing field where other nations felt they needed to follow suit or be excluded from competing which is what is attributed to rapid steroid adoption by increasing numbers of athletes. The inability to compete without them.

Cheats are going to cheat.

Because of the obvious potential for rampant abuse, I doubt this will ever be the Olympic standard.

Do people really think this is going to happen? People are going to ****ing change their public sexual orientation to cash in on the super-lucrative world of women’s sports?

I have heard the argument expressed as basically 'who cares about CIS women having a place they can compete without a disadvantage. On balance expanding Trans rights is far more important than what CIS women are losing.'

They look at it as if it is an 'on balance' consideration.

And I would have no issue with that argument in areas where there is no option. I want Trans rights extended.

But in this case it is entirely possible to extend Trans right in sport in a 100% equitable way and yet not impact CIS women's ability to have a fair playing field. So why not do both?

For sports on a professional level or high-profile international amateur competitions, rules are generally determined by the various organizational bodies, not national legislatures. For amateur level athletic career tracks, amateur organizations might adhere or be members / affiliate members of these organizations through their own national / local interest organizations.

In addition, when it comes medical considerations you have various umbrella organizations that these organizations might again adhere to. For example, WADA.

In the case of the Olympics, you also have the IOC that determine the specific rules of the competition / event itself. This can also happen in other high-profile events. These again link up with the previously mentioned organizations, medical organizations and national authorities through their own guidelines, standards and agreements. This is why for example in boxing we have historically seen a split between "amateur" and "professional" boxing, because of which organizations the IOC decides to cooperate with or which organizations adhere to IOC guidelines.

This of course can lead to a confusing mess of difference in rules, depending on which level you are at in your career. When it comes to subjects that are still controversial subjects, like trans athletes, expect this process to be painstakingly slow and cumbersome.

Which is very a long-winded way of saying that local regulation / national legislation on this issue is only a very small piece of the complete puzzle.

Of course not. The scenario being posited is in the context of authoritarian regimes. Everyone knew the East Germans were lying in the 1980s when they said their female athletes weren't mainlining anabolic steroids. If a belief based declaration were all that was required, then some authoritarian regimes would simply put the arm on people to sign the declaration. If an authoritarian regime can force athletes to take harmful drugs for the sake of Olympic gold medals and then lie about it, then I don't see why they can't force people to sign declarations that everyone will know are false.

The extent to which some authoritarian regimes care about Olympic gold medals has always been mystifying to me. But there are numerous examples of authoritarian regimes that seem to care a whole hell of a lot about Olympic success.

Common sense tells me that IOC is never going to let a 6'3 230 lb North Korean with a full beard and chest hair dominate women's boxing or women's wrestling in the Olympics, even if Dear Leader puts the arm on that person to sign an obviously false declaration.

No actually you will see often the biggest clashes are between groups who have often been the biggest advocates and protectors of women's rights. The people who run the woman's shelters, etc. and traditional lesbian women groups.

The are not arguing to deny Trans right but they feel they should be considered in all these changes and how they impact the women that utilized these places prior.

There tends to be a hand waving dismissive approach taken by many who seem to think it is offensive to even consider how a transwoman with male anatomy might be perceived as threatening to a woman in a shelter who just fled violence.

You can call that persons trepidation 'irrational' and that is ok but shelters are in place in large part to give people a safe place as they learn to cope with their irrational fears. Meaning just because a CIS male may have abused her it is not rational for her to fear all CIS males. But we accept that irrational fear and give her space to reconcile it.

There is an argument that no such space should even be raised for debate when it comes to the introduction of transwomen into these spaces.

I believe compromise can be found that allows for both to have positive outcomes.

It is going to be a huge challenge with that becoming the dominant standard in society in general now and being implemented across high schools.

You fundamentally change the playing field at the lower levels then where do you get the Uni and Pro athlete pools from?


it already happened with Steroid abuse in women to the levels they destroyed their bodies and health to win in those 'super-lucrative women's sports' and it took a World Wide effort to arrest that abuse to any manageable levels..

If left completely unregulated there certainly is no reason to believe the engineering of women with mass amounts of steroids and male hormones (HGH) would have ever slowed.

But that certainly isn’t what’s going on in this thread. The discussion is 100% driven by dudes who don’t actually give a rip about women’s sports but do care a lot about keeping transgender people in their place. The simple, obvious solution is for them to be less uptight and join the 21st century, already in progress.

How about only one level for ~all sports. With handicapping to take account of objective physical attributes - weight, height, bone density etc etc

That's my simple solution. Make it all about skill and mental strength

How we recognize a person who identifies as Trans has changed immensely in just the last few years.

Just a few years ago to be recognized officially one had to have begun hormone therapy and be on track for some form of surgery.

The International Olympic Committee (IOC) adopted a rule that athletes they would consider 'eligible' needed to demonstrate they began hormone therapy before puberty set in and they had sex re-assignment surgery. Now both of those conditions are dropped.

I absolutely think that the 'good faith declaration' now being adopted across most of society where a Transperson or a Gender Fluid person has no need to ever take a single hormone or ever consider surgery is a fine standard for people simply interacting in society on a day to day basis.

If a gender fluid person in good faith considers themselves a CIS Man today and a TransWoman tomorrow, why should I care? Why should I not support that? And I do.

But it becomes increasingly difficult, via our use of language to state and say Gender fluid person is what they declare themselves to be and it is discrimination to treat them any different than the gender they declare and then separate that from Sports.

And anyone should be able to see the challenges it poses to have a Gender Fluid person competing in the CIS Male events on one weekend and then the TransWomen events on the next weekend even if that persons identity is 100% in 'good faith'.

I don't think I accept your generalizations of the majority of posters here.

Yes this is a poker forum and thus mostly male but that does not mean we cannot address and discuss any issue earnestly.

I, certainly am very concerned about the potential impact on female sports.

I get that some people think, we should always wait and see the impact and then only address it to fix it after the fact if there is a bad outcome but others don't take that approach because history has taught us it can be a very harmful approach.

Some like to address challenges and issue preemptively and try to find solutions that are fair before things become big problems.

There's always the simple solution of just calling people names.

Saying that I don't care about women's sports because I am a man is no more credible that me saying that you don't care about transgender people because you are not transgender.

???

One open category across all sport devoid of 'gender', 'sex', 'age', 'height' ,etc but then basically allocating points to those disparities to create a level playing field?

Is that what you are saying?

So basically a very skilled at basketball, 10 year old CIS girl, who is short, might get a spot on an NBA team because on an overall scoring she beats out some men?


If so, no thanks.

I still have not seen a single argument demonstrating how instead of 'gender' based divisions, they simply switched to 'biological sex' based divisions.

That absolutely provides for a completely level playing field for all.

The tiny percent of cases where biological sex is an issue can be treated like TUE and assessed case by case.

The only real argument anyone posed is that transwomen who value privacy and not being outed as 'Trans' would not be able to compete but sport has never involved a right to privacy. If you want to maintain privacy, that is fine, you do not compete.

Just because those who defined Sport by Gender originally never foresaw the split between the word 'gender' and 'biological sex' and they wrongly assumed they would remain synonymous does not mean sport has to stick with 'Gender terms' as categories for competition.

It was ALWAYS meant to be defined and separated by biological sex. That WAS the original premise. They were trying to separate those with inherent biological male advantages from competing with those who did not have that.

Sport made a huge mistake in trying to finesse gender use into a workable solution instead of just saying 'we recognize Trans people and their rights but sports original intent for a balances playing field requires us to align competition by biological sex categories and that is what we will do. This will not disadvantage any Trans person one iota in competing and we welcome them to compete.'