In my day to day, I have very little stress or discomfort from my body. I have direct experience with what life felt like pre transition, during the time period while I was visibly trans, and now that I pass or blend in most situations, and you're just wrong. The mental health issues are directly caused by living under constant threat and mistreatment by society.

Why do you believe you have any useful information about the mental health challenges faced by trans people? Are you trans? Do you work as a counselor for trans people? Do you have a bunch of trans friends?

Hell, do you even know what mental health issues are correlated with being trans? Cause I do, and yeah there is are a couple of specific, non gender related DSM diagnosis that trans people tend to have higher rates of, but I'm gonna guess you don't know what those are

I do, but keep appealing to your own authority. Here's a hint for you, I'm going to treat you like I treat anyone else here and not give a damn about what your identity is. That's part of being treated equally, but you don't want that...you want special consideration because of your identity, as if your opinion, or a trans opinion is more "right". Either you are special/unique, or you are not.

Tell everyone about BPD.

Seems fairly obvious that listening and learning from the perspective of a trans person on trans issues would be valuable. Remember, this thread had a number of people in it who don’t even know the basic vocabulary about trans issues, so being able to directly hear from a trans person speaking eloquently on these issues is very valuable. Indeed, my own journey to advocacy on LGBT issues has been primarily driven by my own relationships with LGBT people in my life.

My opinion about a random topic is not more likely to be right.

My opinion about trans issues? Things directly relevant to my lived experience? Yes, I have more information about that then cis people do.

Like, if we were talking about what life is like for a professional poker player, we would weight the opinion of a professional poker player higher then that of a chef. This seems like common sense and I'm surprised you're pushing back on it.

And no, I wasn't talking about BPD, but it's correlated with childhood trauma... hmm I wonder if trans people have more traumatic childhood? (they do)

A woman is a woman, I thought. I'm not surprised by the ironic twist this conversation has taken.

My whole point for entering this thread was to say that trans people are unique.

Black women are women, right?

But if we were talking about the specific issues that impact Black women differently from non Black women, we would ask Black women, right?

So I guess, I agree - trans women are unique. Just like cis women are unique. And white women are unique. And Black women are unique. And tall women are unique. And short women are unique. And women who play poker are unique. And.... etc etc

If you did, you wouldn't be attributing suicidality or the higher prevalence of mental health and personality disorders to purely societal factors. There's not many marginalized groups in the history of the world that have the suicidality/PD of the trans population. The issue that presents is, trans people feel that knowledge invalidates their existence. This further complicates one of the central components of trans existence, the need for external validation/acceptance. I think it's reasonable to assume, this movement to gain more tolerance isn't going to meaningfully lower the morbidity of the trans population in regards to suicidality, or the prevalence of the mental health challenges they face. In my opinion, it's better to treat trans folks as unique members of society, with the unique circumstances that need to be accounted for. But again, people think you're invalidating their identity by having that opinion.

You seem to not know what you are talking about here.

This is referring to a real world example where a transwoman with male anatomy showed up at Woman's spa that did waxing, but none of the spa staff had any experience with male genitalia. The vast, vast majority of women's spa would not have that experience.


So you understand that just because some 'other' place might have that experience means nothing to the clinic that has the person, standing in front of them TODAY, saying "I want service". That clinic will not know what to do and further more I don't think any woman (person) who does the service for female genitalia should be forced to do it for male genitalia.

Do you? Would you want to see it such that if you choose to do female genital waxing as a service you provide that the purveyor not have the legal ability to discriminate and they must also do male genitalia or be sued or forced out of the industry?

I know of lots of sole practitioner gals who go around with their little kits and offer women's services such as eye brow waxing, nails, hair blow outs and things like Brazilian waxing.

Would your view be they adapt and learn to do male genitals for a trans woman or they should not be in the industry or would you allow for a practitioner to say they do not offer that service, while offering it for female genitals?

Certainly when it comes to bigger clinics I would think it would make good sense for them to advertise and hire people with experience on both but this goes back to my compromise question. Do you give time or just ram things in? Do you just say 'you must do that service NOW or face financial penalty, loss of business license or getting sued? Or do you consider giving some compromise time?

I don't think it too spicy to discuss but some info is required.

You cannot discuss differing anatomy in any meaningful way if you are saying the only appropriate way to refer to is 'female genitalia'. There must be a way to distinguish between the biology of the anatomy. And the biology is male or female, so how are we otherwise distinguishing?

can you expand on what you mean by "trans people feel that knowledge invalidates their existence"?
Can you expand on what you mean by "it's better to treat trans folks as unique members of society?" in what ways should we treat trans folks differently from cis folks?
when you say "This further complicates one of the central components of trans existence, the need for external validation/acceptance.", are you saying that cis people do not have a need for external validation and acceptance, and that this is a uniquely trans trait?


studies have shown, repeatedly, that supportive environments and access to medical care drastically reduce suicide among queer and trans people, while less supportive practices, like conversion therapy can double the rate of suicide.

You treat unique members of society just like you treat an individual with special/unique circumstances.

Cuepee, you seem to be unaware that trans people have been around and medically transitioning for over a century. Is 100 years not enough time for you?

Does anyone not have unique circumstances? Even identical twins have different life experiences.

Adapting to people's needs, doesn't mean you're treating them differently, it means getting treated as an individual. You think it does. That's what I mean when trans folks think you are invalidating their identity, when you adapt to their special circumstances, whatever they may be. Trans folks don't want to be viewed as having a special circumstance, yet will tell you how unique their experience is and how cis people can't possibly understand them, or have an informed opinion.

You are ducking my question.

We have a real life situation and law suit recently by a trans woman showing up at a Woman's Spa and demanding service (Brazilian wax) for her male genitalia.

The Spa (like many female spa's regardless of what you say) has no trained staff for this and none of the women staff members wanted to do the treatment.

Should the spa be forced to? Should the women be forced to? Should they (the spa and women) lose their license or be sued if they don't?

What about all the women who travel around doing these services as sole practitioners, showing up to weddings, etc to provide service? Should they be forced to?

And if so how much time do you give them before you would see them sanctioned/lose their license/ get sued?


If you are going to duck these questions, then fine but lets all stop pretending my stated prior position about this area being challenging to address and time needed being wrong when even you cannot engage these questions with answer today because even you find them challenging to answer.

A non answer really proves my prior point.

I have a question for uke and Ranma as there does seem to be a disconnect between telling 'others' they cannot and should not expect to be able to properly understand trans issues and this woke scolding such as uke is again dong upthread as if all 'others' should know or understand this issue cold or be mocked and scolded?

Do you see any cognitive dissonance in those stances?

I just don't understand what you are actually advocating for. It sounds like you're maybe saying trans women should not be treated differently from cis women, but want to acknowledge that the experience of being trans differs, in some ways, from the experience of being cis.

Just like an able bodied cis woman's experience differs from that of a disabled cis woman.

In which case, cool, we agree, trans women fall under the umbrella of woman, and like every person who is a woman, have their own unique life experiences, of which they are an expert on.

For what it's worth, I do know cis people who have an informed opinion on trans people, because they are close to a number of trans people. None of those people would claim to have a better understanding of the trans experience than a trans person.

I believe that law suit was settled and the woman lost. Many people sue for many things, and many of those suits are lost.
If a provider is able to safely provide a service, then they should provide the service regardless of whether someone is cis or trans. If they can't safely provide the service, then they shouldn't. If the spa can wax penis/balls, then refusing to provide that service to a trans woman with a penis and balls would be discriminatory; if they can't, then no problem.

I don't believe anyone is trying to pass any bills requiring all spas to wax balls, but I do know some people are trying to pass bills saying that a medical provider can refuse to treat a trans person because they are trans. I don't care about the former, but I do care about the latter.
Look up Robert Eads; he was a trans man who had ovarian cancer, was refused care by over a dozen doctors, and then died from his cancer. That is the kind of **** I care about, not this ball waxing nonsense.

I do not believe I have said that cis people cannot understand trans issues, just that trans people are experts on their own experiences, and have a better understanding of trans issues then cis people.

I believe that if you offer an opinion on a marginalized group, you should be coming from an educated place; otherwise, you should focus on learning from the members of that community. This is magnified when you are offering an opinion on what rights and support that community should have.

I am not deaf; I went to a college with a high % of deaf students, and I know some deaf people, but I am not well educated on the breadth of challenges that deaf people face. I would never presume to say how deaf people should or should not be treated in society (other then that they should be treated with respect), because I do not have the knowledge to do so.

Hell, it doesn't even have to be a marginalized community; I wouldn't go to my dentist and give him advice on how he should remove plaque, cause I don't know anything about that. I've been to dentists, I've seen some on TV, but I wouldn't presume to tell a dentist about what issues are important in dentistry.

So no, I don't see any cognitive dissonance there.
However, since you appear to be deeply invested in trans issues, given your many posts in this thread, I'll offer some resources. Check out "Whipping Girl" by Julia Serano, read Detransition, Baby by Torrey Peters, and Nevada by Imogin Binnie - that'll give you a decent base.

Then you can read Uncomfortable Labels: My Life as a Gay Autistic Trans Woman, Nameless Woman: An Anthology of Fiction by Trans Women of Color, Letters for My Sisters: Transitional Wisdom in Retrospect, and finish up with Trans Bodies, Trans Selves: A resource for the Transgender Community.
Then you'll at least have read most of the books I've read on the trans experience, and will have a better base of knowledge to base your opinions on how trans people should be treated in society. You'll still be missing the perspective of trans men and non binary people, but I don't have as many resources for that

Well again that does to my point then (that it was settled and lost) that this is an EVOLVING area of understanding. So always acting like the answers are clear and evident and then scolding or mocking those who do not yet know all the answers is self defeating.

No one knows how these things will all play out yet and learning a day after a court case should not make someone so woke they can scold others who take a week or month longer to learn as they are not exposed to this stuff.

I guarantee you that most people, even in the trans community would not automatically expect a case like that to be lost and most would be taking a 'wait and see' attitude.



As i have also said, certain areas are clearer and easier to deal with, so I am not arguing in a blanket way.

I have raised certain areas only (woman's rape shelter and Spa) as being examples of more challenging areas that might need more time than just saying 'force them as we cannot have different rules'.

Even you are now conceding there might be reason for different rules such as the spa example.

and lastly I am a POC and i avoid speaking for POC with my views as I know directly of other POC who would disagree. So I speak to my own views and opinions avoid claiming authority as a POC otherwise a single other POC who contradicts me makes things awkward.

I don't see the spa example as different rules as much as poor labeling? The ruling seemed to be that if you offer vaginal waxing but do not offer penis waxing, then you don't need to wax penises. If a trans man who has not had phalloplasty went to get a Brazilian and was turned down, then I would guess he would have won this sort of case. And if a trans woman who has had a vaginoplasty was turned down, similarly she probably would have won.

do you agree or disagree with my position here?

You might think the lines are clear and I mean that sincerely, but I think you can see others do not. So much so a trans woman took this to court thinking she SHOULD NOT have been denied service. So that is why I say, over and over, we are still learning and figuring this out.

For instance you seem to be drawing a line I am not clear on here. This spa provides Brazilian waxes to women. they always have. NOw you are saying you are fine with them drawing a distinction based on the body parts saying 'yes to women with body parts X' but 'no to women with body parts y'. Separate but equal facilities to do the procedures.

Ok fine I can accept that.

Why then would the idea that a trans woman with her prior male body parts (bone development, musculature, etc) gained over a lifetime competing in a separate but equal division be this great wrong that everyone says it is? I am curious what distinction you are making if such considerations are on the table??


Sure to some degree. I'll again use myself. If the person is an expert provide the bonafides and away you go. If they are a lay person who just happens to be a POC and thus has an opinion and base of knowledge based on their own experiences, then introduce it but be clear to say this is their view based on their limited life experiences only while knowing others in the same community might vastly differ.

Based on what I read, the ruling was that these people provide vaginal waxing, not genital waxing for women. So men with vaginas can get waxed, so can women, so can nonbinary people, but anyone without a vagina can't get vagina waxing.

Re: Sports, my understanding is that most leagues that allow trans women to compete have restrictions on the level of testosterone in their body - and that restriction applies to all women who compete, cis and trans. I don't think it's a perfect solution, but it seems to work. And is much better than what some states are pushing for, which force trans men to compete with cis women. That is how you end up with stuff like a trans man winning a Texas title
People always focus on trans women (for reasons I'd be happy to go into if you'd like), but trans men exist as well, and these laws apply to them as well.

These laws also apply to cis women! For example, the bill passed by the Florida house contained this provision:
imagine taking your cis daughter to get examined by a doctor to confirm that she's a cis woman, cause some parent on the other team was upset that they lost to you.

Right but the problem still exists if a womens spa never expected a trans woman with their 'prior' male genitalia (is that the right way to say it as you cannot just say woman's genitalia as that could include both?) to show up, they would not be prepared for this and there would be confusion. They probably just advertise Brazilian Waxing and think because they have always been a "woman's spa' that is clear enough. They are not yet 'aware' enough of the fact that some trans women with different equipment might show up for service and hopefully they adapt and make clear their messaging but that is my whole point. People are still learning this stuff. Not everyone or every small business knows all the changes the day things change. And in this case even the trans woman did not, thus why she sued, and lost.

And yes testosterone is the typical measure but that is just a dumb measure. So short sighted. Testosterone is not bad of and by itself but rather what it does to the body is what is bad.

A lifetime of testosterone for as a cis male for a trans woman transitioning late in life (like the example of the power lifter) creates a massive difference in the physiology of that person. Just as you recognize that testosterone does so in the trans male athlete being forced, wrongly, to wrestle cis females.

It is the EXACT SAME ISSUE. The trans male now has a male body thanks to testosterone and is unfairly beating cis women with it who have female bodies. The trans woman power lifter still has all her prior male body advantages and is beating cis women with female bodies.

To your last point that should be easily dealt with. One school or other official authorized to see your medical records. Done. Current steroid testing and procedures are and will continue to be far more invasive as you pee and get blood drawn, and surprised tested, on the regular.

Of course no is required to play sport at that level and get tested for anything. And the vast, vast majority don't. It is an opt in thing. If you want to play, we have to verify things. If you don't, we don't.

I don't say that to be callous. It is how it has always been.

Brazilian waxing for males is becoming increasingly popular. Thats what I just read, plus I kinda know, because one of business is next to a brazilian waxing. Gays go there and I assume trans too. We all know gay people get br waxings in any bigger city I know this. Nobody has a problem with that. Why would they? They are bringing in money and are just humans.

Men get waxed too. Refusing would be discrimination. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_waxing

Also a spa is not a spa. The name spa ranges from- cosmetics, to saunas-to massages- and was historically thermal springs. Nowadays a day spa is usually just treatments. But big spas usually have all sorts of treatments and especially water stuff, like salt baths or thermal water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spa

And yes I am a spa expert. Well sort of kinda. My family does some spa business and I have seen all kind of spas because I like them. I have seen spas that would knock your socks off.
At four season hotels and other luxurly hotel chains, I worked shortly in the tourism industry. Refusing trans people would be suicide for any of these properties imo, and def. discrimination.

If you mean penis, you can just say penis, there is no need to ascribe gender to genitals. Some men have penises, some men have pussies, etc.

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is and what solution you're suggesting, but it seems like the solution is for the spa to specify that they're only able to wax vaginas and for everyone to move on with their life. Or they can learn how to put wax on balls, I've never done it myself but it doesn't seem difficult.

If you feel like what testosterone does to the body is bad, you may want to consider: estrogen. Estrogen! It does a body good
ok end shitpost, testosterone doesn't do anything bad to a body,
The trans man always had a male body, because he's male. His body has now undergone testosterone puberty, and there are changes that testosterone puberty causes in the body, both permanent and temporary. He'll probably grow a beard, and those terminal hairs aren't going to go away if he stops taking testosterone. He probably has more muscle mass than he did before he started testosterone; but if he stops taking testosterone, that muscle will go away!

I can't tell if you didn't know that about testosterone or what, but it kinda goes to my point - if you aren't super familiar with the actual specifics of how this stuff works, you might want to listen more then talk.

I used to be able to carry two cases of beer home from the store, no problem. Now I struggle with just one. My level of exercising (none at all) hasn't changed, I just stopped having much testosterone in my system. You don't get to keep the muscle.

Are there some changes that testosterone and estrogen puberty causes, if you go through them between the ages of 10-24, that are permanent, or won't happen later in life if you go through those puberties later. The extra height may be an advantage if you're trying to play basketball (but since the WNBA is filled with cis women who have an average height of 6' 5", I don't think my 5' 11" ass has a chance), but it may be a disadvantage if you're trying to be a gymnast - or if you're just trying to move a larger body with less muscle. If you want to restrict how tall someone can be, or how long their arms can be, or whatever, to be in your league - cool, do that. Kinda weird, but sure whatever go ahead. But telling a 6' 5" trans woman she can't play in the WNBA cause her extra height gives her an advantage over cis women, when there are already a number of cis women in the WNBA who are her height or taller, doesn't make any sense to me.

yeah, love to pass laws around letting the government into my private medical records. Feels real free.
"no one is required to play sport at that level" it's literally high school sports, it's about as low level as it can get other then a beer league.

And if you are passing a law (which didn't pass, by the way), then no, it isn't how it has always been. You're arguing for more government regulation, more unnecessary regulations, you should be coming with a strong argument.