I guess I didn't realize you were only referring to the people who just declare their gender on any given day.

Are we actually letting people simply declare themselves to be women and compete in women's sports today? I thought this whole thing was about people who are taking transition hormones.

I was talking about people who take the medical steps necessary to become the gender opposite of their biological reality.


I am a giant. When I was in 5th grade little league, an opposing coach threw a fit and asked my parents to produce a birth certificate. He certainly didn't think age was the only thing to consider when it comes to fair competition. Our coach told him to stop being a baby.

Joke was on me though, since I couldn't hit for ****. But oh boy, when I made a connection...

There is zero requirement today to competing as trans.

Any male athlete can compete at 1pm in the men's and then the next day in women's without any hormones ever taken and any intent to ever do surgery. A verbal declaration of how you feel on that day is enough.

And I am not being trite as they idea of gender fluidity means it can be a fleeting, ever changing decision and that is ok. It is perfectly fine to say 'I am transwoman today' and then the next day say 'I am a man' and compete in sports accordingly.

But I do not think that is what you were getting at? I think your comment was more directed at post surgery and where they would fit, unless I am not understanding ,in which case I still do not see how competing as your biological sex does not address that???

Can they? I'm skeptical.

Are there major examples of this? If so, that's a sad commentary on where we've ended up as a society.

I assumed that we had placed at least some barrier to this beyond relying on pure shame and embarrassment.

"a right" to sports competition isn't a thing at all so that just seems odd to say it let alone attempt to base an argument on it.

why is age and biological sex more inherently fair than say heights, weights, 40 yard dash times, or lengths of your arms, or the amount of testosterone currently in your body? it's all arbitrary. again a trans athlete is potentially excluded from participating in sports contain the gender to which they identify.

our disagreement i guess fundamentally comes down to who gets to choose. you(im paraphrasing, correct me if im wrong) are saying that transwomen(mtf) should be forced to compete in "men's" divisions, and transmen(ftm) should always be forced to compete in "women's" divisions. again i hope you aren't coming from a prospective that trans athletes should be banned all together, like some others are. this "solution" creates the same outcome that people here are upset with just under different circumstances. they will argue that the hormones included in the ftm transition are unfair and those athletes shouldn't be allowed to compete in the "women's" division, (like the mack breggs in texas hs wrestling situation) while simultaneously barring him from competing in "men's" divisions because his original birth certificate said female.

The argument that it is arbitrary works both ways though. You could just as well reason that you should have division based on biological sex, if you accept that it can be arbitrary.

There is 90k cross-country skiing event in these parts, it has open entry. Obviously the top female athletes are incredible, I couldn't hang on for 400m if I tried. In terms of regime in training for these events, they are as diligent as the males. But, if you removed division by sex, the best female would place around position 100. In athletics you push the biological limits, and this is just how these limits manifest.

While I doubt the event will be overrun by biological males seeking to compete in the female class, there is certainly an argument to be made to that the biological sexes should be set to compete against peers. Insofar as there can be money in sports, we can also see the potential for abuse. Even if it is rare, it could be destructive.

I think this one tricky. There is a conflict between the cultural and the biological element here. I don't give a toss about what gender people identify as, if they're happy, I am happy for them. But exactly what classes to divide sports into, I don't see an easy answer there.

I don't think it is appropriate for a person born as a woman to compete as a woman if they have undergone a sex change that involves hormones. Unless you allow all women to take testosterone before they compete (which would be ridiculous and awful - not unlike why steroids are banned in professional sports).

Similarly it would be patently unfair to let a person born as a man to have to compete as a man after a sex change operation and who is taking hormones.

I get that it seems unfair (and can be) for men to change their sex and compete as women. In the 1970's there was a woman tennis player named Renee Richards I think who was ranked at about 100 who underwent a sex change operation and competed as a woman. And she ended up ranked in the top ten if memory serves. I don't think she won any major titles or it could have gotten ugly. But clearly she cost some women some money. And if what Sklansky is saying is that all of those women should have gotten paid as if they hadn't lost when they did (and got more or less what the trans athlete made) then perhaps that could work - with limits (like if the trans athlete won, then all of the people she/he beat couldn't get top money too...). I don't think the athletes would object to getting more money and it would certainly appease all of the victim lovers.

There is no way there will be a separate category of competition though. Especially in high schools. It would have to be on a national basis like the special olympics.

Also, I want to point out that nobody in their right mind would change sexes in order to win competitions. Most Trans people are not mentally ill. They just don't accept the sex they were born with. The ones I know are extremely happy and well adjusted once they have transitioned.

The fact is that there are many athletes (both men and women) who won't transition who have a much higher level of hormones than others. In some cases it is obvious and is dealt with. In other cases they are suspected of taking hormones/steroids.

In professional and collegiate sports the fact is that many female athletes are gay. These gay athletes will likely support Trans athletes who compete in their world because in the end they are part of their LGBT community. I guess the straight female athletes may be ticked off but at least it won't be all of the athletes...

And the last thing I will say on the subject is what RickRoll alluded to. Many transgender people were born as both sexes. Their parent(s) made a decision at birth that was in all likelihood the wrong one. I think we should have compassion for them and allow them to be in the world as they wish to be.

renee richards was never in the top 100 as a male, always a highly ranked amateur, was ranked among the top 20 of amateurs over 35 years old cat - talented yes, but there's a reason why he pursued med school instead of tennis after college - he wasn't at that level

he transitioned to a she in late 30s and is on the record that she regrets competing against against women and that had she not been so damn old by the time she did it then she would have just dominated the field

My understanding is that in ultra-distance running, women are capable and have won events in open fields. [Trigger warning: biology incoming]-- my understanding is that women burn fat better and that a large part of ultra distance is training one's body to do so effectively. I don't know how cross-country skiing compares to running in terms of caloric output, but if it's about 2:1, then a 90k ski race would be the mere equivalent of marathon distance and therefore not far enough to show how women can actually compete with men in these types of events.
Women are outrunning men at ultra distances

I think science is allowed in any thread unless the topic is sex or race.

Long range cross country skiing is very dependent on upper body strength. The best elite runners frequently rely mostly on upper-body motion, to maintain higher speeds. The «runner» body-type isn’t the most effective.

In hill climb it evens out a little, but cross country is generally mixed terrain. Long range events are generally fairly flat.

LoL at making this statement as if it is some sort of fact.

My memory sucks.

According to her Wikipedia page though Renee Richards was ranked 22 at the end of one year and as high as 20th. This was vs all women not just 35 and over. She did win a 35+ Open event as well as get to the women's double finals at the US Open.
This is critically important and I was unaware of it. Perhaps it is unfair.

Maybe all trans athletes should have to compete as men or not at all (unless they end up with a Trans Olympics once there are enough Trans athletes)

Interesting stuff, that is crazy, she sued the US Open and won.

She was a coach for Martina Navratilova, the cousin of my father was training with Martina, he is a tennis crazy, thats why this is really interesting to me.

Yes i am saying there is an arbitrariness in all of this and generally it is based on an attempt to create a level playing field.

So we can argue that neither 'biological sex' nor 'gender' are a must so which is fairer.

I can find nothing that is unfair, not one thing, to saying to any and all persons you will ALL be matched by biological sex.

If you say 'it can be viewed unfair if I WANT to compete against gender', well then that necessarily means "it is unfair to any biological woman who WANTS to compete by biology'.

Check mate female sports, as you cannot satisfy both so just shut down.

And so we go back to fairness. No one denies there is some unfairness in many cases when biologically sex ales who have transitioned (or not) after puberty and who have all the physical advantages of their prior gender to compete with women. Just as men have advantages over women in sports, those advantages do not go away simply because someone has fluid gender.

Fairness demands shows that dividing the divisions by biological sex has less issues and is more fair.

For some odd reason when I was thinking about this issue I was contemplating only track events and considering only those men who had the full operation. With those criteria, my solution would be simple and obvious since it would be rare for a natural born female to be affected and if she was it would be a simple matter to measure the difference in rewards between her actual placement and her placement it there were antitransgender roles.

This is the predominant guide for Trans participation in Highschool or below with the changes I indicate are becoming predominant now.



Here is the underlying guidelines that inform that.


You will note it is very specific that no hormones or surgery are required. Only a declaration of 'sincere intent' in the student expressing their 'gender identity'.

Because the only reason people compete in sports is for money? Please.

So you are saying that a girl who comes in fifth(no money or scholarship) but would have come in fourth(again no money or scholarship) under the anti trans legislation, should feel worse even though the number of people in her school she could beat is exactly the same? Its the money lost that is really the only part of this that can be used to justify mean legislation.

not to derail, but i had heard that as well. ultra marathoning, and competitive firearms shooting i believe. something about better balance due to lower center of gravity for standing shooting position and some potentially psuedoscience about slowing heart rates better.

Is that such a simple matter though? One might argue that putting a price tag on a Olympic gold medal is not that easy. Individual marketability is also a factor. Sportsperson A might make 10x more than sportsperson B from winning the same medal.

Also wouldn't an even simpler solution be to remove all gender barriers altogether and have all genders compete together?

Well you're in luck, there is an established value to medals https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...-asia-37129276

LOL if you think a guy in his right mind would have his dick cut off, his balls removed, and receive estrogen injections for 2 years in order to win at sports against girls/women.

I'm not saying it isn't possible that some seriously demented individual might do it. I'm just saying they would have to be seriously demented. As if it were a fact.

Over/under on the % of times a thread titled "The Simple, Obvious, Solution to _____" was accurately titled?

10% seems about right. Might be high, though.

+1

But you don't have to do that as I have shown up thread.


Rick can enter a track and field competition that has the Male sprinting events on Saturday and the Female ones on Sunday and if he is gender fluid, he can enter both having never taken a hormone or doing any surgery.

A simply affirmation that 'today I am ____ gender' is enough.

If we agree gender is fluid (and i have no issue with that) then we cannot then deny this in a sport that allows gender to be defined by 'acknowledgement only'.