No I was clear that my disgust was due to the lying from both of you.

Juan tried to frame a trans boy being forced to compete against girls as a problem with progressives and trans in general.

You backed him and tried to continue obfuscating the situation.

Both of you refuse to acknowledge the truth of the situation and you are instead attacking me and strawmanning.

In fact, you are the one who has made up your mind to defend Juan and attack perceived progressives at all costs.

Even in a situation where the progressives and the trans boy himself fought to allow him to compete against boys you are blaming them for his competing against girls. This is a fairly simple concept and since you continue to use it to fight against trans rights it is clear you are engaging deceptively and only acting in the interests of tribalism.

Who are you arguing with? Castor us a biological female. And I said that I don't believe trans females should be able to compete at the highest levels.

Regardless, we are far from needing to "cut out male female categories". There have been very few trans women attempting the highest levels. It's a complete non issue. So much so that Juan and Kel need to lie about it in HS cases.

Of course it's almost a non-issue, because per today the differentiation in top-level physical sports is pretty much exclusively based on biological sex. And it'll keep being a non-issue as long as we keep it that way.

Other than that, I don't give a toss what someone competing as a biological woman / man identifies as or what pronoun I should use. I'm not going to stand in the way of someone's happiness.

Sure. It's a useful edge case for people who want to bully and de-lgitimize transgender people, much like the trans bathroom controversy.

The Boy Scouts is a good example. When there was a controversy over having gay scoutmasters, I don't think many people on either side were actually worried about the state of the Boy Scouts per se. It was a proxy for larger questions about gay people their role in society.

As is often the case, we can count on Kel to accidentally say the quiet parts out loud:

What an amazingly fragile society we have if an extremely small number of people from one of the most marginalized groups is a treat to it! I'm struggling to imagine a worldview where treating transgender people with a minimal about of respect is an existential threat to society. It must be exhausting.

Q: If Mike Tyson lowered his testosterone level to w/e is the number I see discussed above and he - w/o any pre-fight training at all - fights the female world champ boxer what would the Vegas line be?

All you really need to do is make sure that a natural female doesn't lose prize money or a scholarship. About one in ten million athletic results will require intervention.

"As I pointed out, these issues are complicated. I made my main issue crystal clear. At what age should we allow a minor to participate in hormone therapy? Why, how, etc? That's a question, please come up with an answer or perhaps walk back your absurd outburst. Slighted has no shame, do you?"

Juan, what was your main point made crystal clear? The only thing crystal clear fromyour words and pictures show, is that you concerned that transmen are successful in womens athletics. If there is more, please elaborate.

Everytime you get cornered because of your lying or misinformation you change the subject. This subject is transgendered athletes and sports segregated by sex. What age hormone therapy should be given to minors is completely off topic.

Transgender is the preferred nomenclature. "Transgendered" sounds like something that happened to them rather than who they are.

So if I start a new thread titled this, you will weigh in???

I'd rather have one broad thread on issues relating to transgender than a bunch of them. As I said earlier, I'm OK with the topic being broader than just sports. That said, I think it's reasonable of jjjou to ask juan to respond to specific points instead of just immediately jumping to a new topic.

Hypothetical Q: if Boomers treated transgender identity as a serious issue deserving of sympathy and respect, do you suppose fewer of them would take their own lives?

My hypothetical situation is far less likely to come about than Howard's, tbqh.

fwiw, this is new information to me as well. I'm just a dumb Midwestern clod; I mean well but I'm not well-informed about these things.

Since you seem to be following along and this page is full of posts claiming I'm somehow "lying", could you explain on their behalf what or where my lie was? Could you explain how or why giving giving minors hormone therapy is off topic?

If not, could you maybe consider that rehashing things like this that are objectively false is a never ending derail. Should I engage them and repeat back posts that make this crystal clear over and over? If you don't want me to go off on how stupid they're behaving is there nothing stopping them from doing this? I mean we are probably in double digits on re explaining an objectively false accusation of lying here. At what point is someone just steering things in to the gutter by just trying to rehash something settled?


https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=351

Just to be clear, I don't begrudge anyone who uses "transgendered" out of ignorance. I had to learn too. I could see how I might have sounded snarky or condescending in writing.

I didn't actually follow it that closely, so I'm afraid you're on your own. If you want some feedback from me, I will suggest that I think some of the difficulties you have in arguments do arise from the way you argue. But communication is difficult even in the best of times, and it's even harder when there are so many disagreements. so I think we all just have to try our best.

But, and this is a general comment which everyone can potentially benefit from: you're not obligated to reply to people if you think it's too tedious. If you don't want to try to work through the argument you can just drop it.

Lets say that tyson got sentenced back in the day and decided to go through hormone therapy while in jail. He also developed a heavy smoking habit. he could walk out of jail after 2 years and straight in to a boxing ring vs the best female in the world and punch her so hard that she would have a high probability of permanent brain damage and possible death. It wouldn't be a fight it would be barbaric

This is missing 2 key points. The first is safety. This doesn't look safe to me.

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The second is competition. At what point is it even fun anymore. How many participants like the one pictured would it take to ruin a league of 12 teams. You want to go up against that every 3rd game? every other game? every game? At some point it just ruins the game. They have senior divisions in recreation sports for the same reason. Do you think a bunch of 50 year olds want to play against 20 year olds? If a good 20 year old showed up they would ruin the game and they would ask them to leave. If the 20 year old sucked they might tolerate it

At the local YMCA pickup basketball games the 50 year olds handle this by all showing up at 7 am, when no 20 year old is awake.

I think this is actually a fair point. This is a principle Jordan Peterson talks about a lot. I am paraphrasing, but he argues life is a bunch of games, and it really only works if we perceive it is fair. And in this case it probably wouldn't take too many "gifted" trans females to ruin the integrity female athletics. That is not to say we still may decide it is worthwhile in the end to "ruin" female athletics by allowing transgenders, but win a bigger, more important game of supporting transgender identity.

Any sensible dog owner understands this. If they never get the ball they don't want to play anymore or it shifts from play to frustration and anger

They actually study this in rats. It's actually a window in to how we conceptualize morality. IIRC if a bigger and smaller rat "play" which is basically wrestle, if the smaller rat doesn't win about 30% of the time they won't play anymore. There are undefined rules to the game. They observe similar in kids playing. They invent games and the rules aren't actually defined but an innate morality emerges

How many people has this person injured?

Which opinions of cis female athletes and trans athletes of either gender have you read?

In fairness, this is kind of a honeypot issue on right wing media. He has probably read a lot of articles or watched segments where cis athletes have been quoted as saying it isn't fair.

I spent 15 seconds google searching and found such an article quoting cis athletes saying it isn't fair.

https://www.christianheadlines.com/c...nnecticut.html

Oh, I see. If a cis straight white guy who's a noted anti-liberal reactionary has an opinion about trans women in women's athletics, we have to assume he's coming from a place of experience, expertise, and good faith about the particulars of women's athletics rather than his interest in this as a sympathetic angle from which to argue against the place of trans people in society in general.

Like, OK? Sure, we'll see if the only opinions of people who've lived this issue he's read is selectively edited quotations from female athletes in conservative Christian ideological magazines. That's what he's posted so far, but we'll see if he has a broader but as-yet-uncited repertoire.

He wasn't specifically talking about trans women or women's athletics. But yeah, generally a trained psychologist might have some useful insight into sociological/psychological phenomenon that might be worth listening to.

I am guessing in your field, you wouldn't want others to discount your own wisdom and experience on the grounds of your phenotype?