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11-05-2019 , 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
Go learn about psychology, then developmental psychology, then you can start making these claims. I've tried to be nice, and lead you along, but you have such a poor understanding of both...

You mean they listen to "experts", instead of deciding for themselves.

The issue is black and white, the solution, the solution runs into criticism because it flies in the face of some long-standing psychological principals with nothing to support that reversal, and no such reversal in other aspects of identity development.

Yes, you can. All the research I've read, does not go out the window because you said so. Show me the research. I want the research/studies that are informing the "experts". It seems hard to come by....for some reason.
First you say, go learn about psychology before I can make any claims; an argument for authority.
Then you claim parents will blindly follow the research of "experts"; an argument against authority.
And that they should be figuring it out for themselves; an argument against authority.
Then you say the solution comes from long-standing psychological principals; an argument for authority.
Now you say your research supports you and you want me to find opposing research and claim that it's hard to come by; an argument for and against authority.

So which is it, do you want me to come up with the answer myself or from the experts, or only the one's you say are experts?

There is no research that says that you can program a trans child to not be trans. What you may be positively reinforcing is hiding themselves and their gender identity which could lead to more gender dysphoria and hardship down the line. That, to me, is bad parenting.

I didn't really want to go here but if you really need research there's probably relevant studies produced from conversion therapy where electroshock treatment was administered as negative punishment, a form of operant conditioning, which caused them to feel shamed, conflicted and fearful about their homosexual feelings.

Do you really think positive/negative reinforcement will stop them from feeling something? Seems like it will just stop a child from showing that behavior to their parent and depending on how the child is treated, actually prove detrimental to their mental and physical health. Not sure if you'll allow me to form my own opinion on this one or if I have to look to the experts.
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11-05-2019 , 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt hirschhorn
hardly a doctor, a psychologist. A lot of them are quacks.
Not that there's anything wrong with being a psychologist, but I'm actually a psychiatrist (a child and adolescent psychiatrist more specifically). An actual medical doctor. Do you think I'm actually less likely to know more about the topic than people without a formal education in it?
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11-05-2019 , 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
Which parent is more likley to generate false positives, a manipulative parent, one with altruistic intentions, but relies s on the doctor for what's best, or the one who actually researches behavior in children, and then learns about what the experts says about this particular topic, then coalesce the two?

Look at the activist, MrWookie, master, who out of pocket rejects the behavior science of one of the most prominent physiologist of the 20th century?







It is black and white. No one has refuted the Law of effect.





This is about encouraging a child to do something...that may or may not be in line with how the child really feels, and can have demonstrably lasting identity issues, and the child won't really be able to speak for themselves until they mature.
Hahahahahhahah wow. You just get to declare that it's the mom who is manipulative, while the dad who does a bunch of inexpert, unguided research and who has a long legacy of deceit and fraud in his life is the real authority?
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11-05-2019 , 09:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiiziwiig
Do you really think positive/negative reinforcement will stop them from feeling something?
I had a response to everything, till I got here. This shows you have no comprehension of what I'm writing.

This is the last time.

Kids will wrap themselves into pretzels for their parents, they will conform or contort their own sense of identity for their parents, irrespective of how they feel. They will do this according to how a parent responds to a particular behavior. They do not have the capacity to be critical, other than in very basic ways, until at least adolescents. Most of the push back a kid gives is related to pushing boundaries, rather than any critical ideas they may have related to their identity. Kids, especially when at the age we are talking about, are influenced by what they see. If a kid mimics something, and gets positive reinforcement, they will likely do it again. So, what's starts as a mimic, turns into the kid trying to get the satisfactory response from the parent.
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11-05-2019 , 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman
Not that there's anything wrong with being a psychologist, but I'm actually a psychiatrist (a child and adolescent psychiatrist more specifically). An actual medical doctor. Do you think I'm actually less likely to know more about the topic than people without a formal education in it?
I want to ask you something, is the brain on fire hypothesis talked about a lot in your field? Specifically, it's correlation with depression? I am just genuinely curious. Also, what I said was rude and I am sorry for that. I just personally have seen a ton of people mistreated, I don't doubt there are plenty of great psychologist/psychiatrist.

Last edited by tul6700; 11-05-2019 at 09:47 PM.
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11-05-2019 , 09:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
I had a response to everything, till I got here. This shows you have no comprehension of what I'm writing.

This is the last time.

Kids will wrap themselves into pretzels for their parents, they will conform or contort their own sense of identity for their parents, irrespective of how they feel. They will do this according to how a parent responds to a particular behavior. They do not have the capacity to be critical, other than in very basic ways, until at least adolescents. Most of the push back a kid gives is related to pushing boundaries, rather than any critical ideas they may have related to their identity. Kids, especially when at the age we are talking about, are influenced by what they see. If a kid mimics something, and gets positive reinforcement, they will likely do it again. So, what's starts as a mimic, turns into the kid trying to get the satisfactory response from the parent.
yea, as a kid i snuck out at night to go drink with my friends because "positive reinforcement".
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11-05-2019 , 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman
Not that there's anything wrong with being a psychologist, but I'm actually a psychiatrist (a child and adolescent psychiatrist more specifically). An actual medical doctor. Do you think I'm actually less likely to know more about the topic than people without a formal education in it?
....

Quote:
Because psychiatrists are trained medical doctors, they can prescribe medications, and they spend much of their time with patients on medication management as a course of treatment.
Quote:
Psychologists focus extensively on psychotherapy and treating emotional and mental suffering in patients with behavioral intervention. Psychologists are also qualified to conduct psychological testing, which is critical in assessing a person’s mental state and determining the most effective course of treatment.
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Psychologists must obtain a PhD or PsyD doctoral degree, which can take up to four or six years. Throughout their education, psychologists study personality development, the history of psychological problems and the science of psychological research. Graduate school provides rigorous preparation for a career in psychology by teaching students how to diagnose mental and emotional disorders in varying situations.
Your response to if a drug was safe, was entirely based on what another doctor said. No research, no education, no nothing other than what fellow doctors said. What if a doctor told them they were safe. Go ahead, show me the research that says there is "little down side risk, long term". You only think that becasue that's what you were told. I have not seen any research that indicates the risk was known. It's off label use, and it's not approved by the FDA, and it's experimental. You made a point to say "little down side risk". What did medical school say about this?

Last edited by itshotinvegas; 11-05-2019 at 09:48 PM.
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11-05-2019 , 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiiziwiig
yea, as a kid i snuck out at night to go drink with my friends because "positive reinforcement".
Why did you sneak?
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11-05-2019 , 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
I had a response to everything, till I got here. This shows you have no comprehension of what I'm writing.



This is the last time.



Kids will wrap themselves into pretzels for their parents, they will conform or contort their own sense of identity for their parents, irrespective of how they feel. They will do this according to how a parent responds to a particular behavior. They do not have the capacity to be critical, other than in very basic ways, until at least adolescents. Most of the push back a kid gives is related to pushing boundaries, rather than any critical ideas they may have related to their identity. Kids, especially when at the age we are talking about, are influenced by what they see. If a kid mimics something, and gets positive reinforcement, they will likely do it again. So, what's starts as a mimic, turns into the kid trying to get the satisfactory response from the parent.
How many kids did you say you have?
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11-05-2019 , 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by master3004
How many kids did you say you have?
I want to hear more about you disputing what they are teaching in modern psychology, that has not been embraced for, what did you say, 50 years? But it's in a text book first published in 2014 (with zero criticisms of it), and has a key take away concerning psychology and reinforcement. I think you continue to find a way to invalidate some really important psychological principals, using irrelevant stuff.

Last edited by itshotinvegas; 11-05-2019 at 10:03 PM.
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11-05-2019 , 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshotinvegas
I want to hear more about you disputing what they are teaching in modern psychology, that has not been embraced for, what did you say, 50 years? But it's in a text book first published in 2014 (with zero criticisms of it), and a key take away concerning psychology and reinforcement. I think you continue to find a way to invalidate some really important psychological principals, using irrelevant stuff.
It is not used as a tenant of psychology today and your book doesnt refute that. It simply explains what behaviorism is and how it works. It does not in any way indicate it is still being used in psychological treatment today.

Your turn.

How many kids?

What scientific degree do you hold?
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11-05-2019 , 10:06 PM
Lots of "**** you"s to hand out to some of the bullshit sexist responses to my last post

Instead of doing that I'll just say "you know who you are", and "**** you"
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11-05-2019 , 10:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by master3004
It is not used as a tenant of psychology today and your book doesnt refute that. It simply explains what behaviorism is and how it works. It does not in any way indicate it is still being used in psychological treatment today.

Your turn.

How many kids?

What scientific degree do you hold?
Quote:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...9142229290013V

For many years, differential reinforcement has been a prevalent and preferred treatment procedure for the reduction of behavior disorders. This paper reviews the procedural variations of differential reinforcement and discusses their functional properties. It is proposed that such procedures are more likely to be successful if behavioral function is a primary consideration in prescribing treatments; furthermore, limited success noted in previous research may be due to the arbitrary relationship that often exists between reinforcers and target behaviors when behavioral function is unknown. Despite the promise of a function-based approach to differential reinforcement, several current limitations exist in the identification and manipulation of relevant variables. Thus, further research is required to elucidate the relationship between aberrant behaviors and the variables responsible for maintaining them; otherwise, successful treatment cannot be expected. Several areas for future research are discussed conceptually as extensions of current and past experimentation.

Quote:
Functional analyses (Iwata, Dorsey, Slifer, Bauman, & Richman, 1982/1994) have been useful in determining function-based treatments for problem behavior. Recently, however, researchers have evaluated the use of arbitrary reinforcers (e.g., positive reinforcers) to decrease problem behavior maintained by negative reinforcement, particularly in the absence of extinction. We provide a brief review of recent research on this topic and discuss implications regarding mechanisms, practice, and future research directions.

Quote:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ba.2001.34-521

Positive reinforcement was more effective than negative reinforcement in promoting compliance and reducing escape‐maintained problem behavior for a child with autism. Escape extinction was then added while the child was given a choice between positive or negative reinforcement for compliance and the reinforcement schedule was thinned. When the reinforcement requirement reached 10 consecutive tasks, the treatment effects became inconsistent and reinforcer selection shifted from a strong preference for positive reinforcement to an unstable selection pattern.

**** it, do your homework.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...=1&oi=scholart

Last edited by itshotinvegas; 11-05-2019 at 10:10 PM. Reason: You are so ****ing wrong.
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11-05-2019 , 10:11 PM
Also, the performance is during my third trimester, so **** you too
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11-05-2019 , 10:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossnerd
Also, the performance is during my third trimester, so **** you too
Is it possible the individual/individuals were not intentionally being sexist? Maybe there questions just came off sexist?

Last edited by tul6700; 11-05-2019 at 10:21 PM.
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11-05-2019 , 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 57 On Red
Of course he shouldn't, because that will make him look foolish
ITT dressing like a girl makes one look "foolish"

How about.... **** you
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11-05-2019 , 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt hirschhorn
Is it possible the individual/individuals were not intentionally being sexist? Maybe there questions just came off sexist? I am not saying they were or they were not, I just think you need to be careful using that word because you have called tons of people that are not "sexist", sexist, including me.
Oh don't worry, I don't mean "**** you" in an aggressive way. I mean "**** you" in its most flippant and dismissive interpretation.

Like I give a **** if they mean it or not. I know what it means *to me*.

Also, **** you
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11-05-2019 , 10:23 PM
The things that have been said in this thread, just BIG WOW. Congrats, idiots.
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11-05-2019 , 10:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossnerd
Oh don't worry, I don't mean "**** you" in an aggressive way. I mean "**** you" in its most flippant and dismissive interpretation.

Like I give a **** if they mean it or not. I know what it means *to me*.

Also, **** you
Good day to you too.
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11-05-2019 , 10:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossnerd
The things that have been said in this thread, just BIG WOW. Congrats, idiots.
You people are all ****ed up for life but Crossnerd does win with the correct derogatory usage.

Idiots.—Those so defective that the mental development never exceeds that or a normal child of about two years.
Imbeciles.—Those whose development is higher than that of an idiot, but whose intelligence does not exceed that of a normal child of about seven years.
Morons.—Those whose mental development is above that of an imbecile, but does not exceed that of a normal child of about twelve years.
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11-05-2019 , 10:38 PM
It's mind boggling to me, the APA's position is entirely built on reinforcement, with positive reinforcement, and we have the activist denying reinforcement is a thing.
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11-05-2019 , 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt hirschhorn
hardly a doctor, a psychologist. A lot of them are quacks.


For someone so convinced he’s biologically superior, you sure do have a massive amount of fragile ego and masculinity. Seems to be some type of dysphoria. A psychologist might be able to help you with this fwiw.
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11-05-2019 , 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by formula72
You people are all ****ed up for life but Crossnerd does win with the correct derogatory usage.

Idiots.—Those so defective that the mental development never exceeds that or a normal child of about two years.
Imbeciles.—Those whose development is higher than that of an idiot, but whose intelligence does not exceed that of a normal child of about seven years.
Morons.—Those whose mental development is above that of an imbecile, but does not exceed that of a normal child of about twelve years.
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11-05-2019 , 10:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmayB
For someone so convinced he’s biologically superior, you sure do have a massive amount of fragile ego and masculinity. Seems to be some type of dysphoria. A psychologist might be able to help you with this fwiw.
Never have promoted genetic superiority, but thanks.
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