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Old 08-01-2020, 03:30 PM   #76
Mustafa
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Re: Tipping Culture

One of the awkward parts about restaurant tipping culture is when a server gets a lower than expected tip from their customer and they express their unhappiness directly with the customer instead of the employer who is only paying them $2.13/hour and the customer actually gave them more money than their employer did. If receiving tips is so dominant over a base wage, you would think servers would know that tip receiving has variance and it would straighten itself out long term, but that's not what happens. Tip shaming often happens and that is one of the issues of the culture.
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Old 08-01-2020, 07:35 PM   #77
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Re: Tipping Culture

Problem is though employers are relying on the fact that the public know that they are paying them so little so expect the customers to pay a decent tip for standard or good service that employers expect their employees to provide.
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Old 08-01-2020, 08:07 PM   #78
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Re: Tipping Culture

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Same, but I try to make it a point to tip a larger amount when I suck out and my opponent gets salty. I'm petty like that.
Interesting, like it.
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Old 08-01-2020, 08:30 PM   #79
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Re: Tipping Culture

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Originally Posted by Mustafa View Post
One of the awkward parts about restaurant tipping culture is when a server gets a lower than expected tip from their customer and they express their unhappiness directly with the customer instead of the employer who is only paying them $2.13/hour and the customer actually gave them more money than their employer did. If receiving tips is so dominant over a base wage, you would think servers would know that tip receiving has variance and it would straighten itself out long term, but that's not what happens. Tip shaming often happens and that is one of the issues of the culture.
Shaming someone for bad or neglectful behavior is extremely important for social animals.

It is a shame that servers do not have the necessary backbones to shame everyone who doesn't tip appropriately.

Also, you might be unaware of it, but servers also give their employers **** for poor
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Old 08-02-2020, 02:34 AM   #80
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Re: Tipping Culture

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Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2 View Post
Shaming someone for bad or neglectful behavior is extremely important for social animals.

It is a shame that servers do not have the necessary backbones to shame everyone who doesn't tip appropriately.

Also, you might be unaware of it, but servers also give their employers **** for poor
The servers are the ones theoretically being graded. Who are they to say what tip they deserved? It's akin to saying if a student didn't get the grade they thought they deserved, then they should shame the teacher. There's no grading scale for "deserved tipping scale" as it is subjective so there really is no such thing as an appropriate tip per situation, just general tipping guidelines.

What would Cuppee say to restaurants paying their servers minimum wage and still allowing tips to be optional? No service charge, just pay them appropriately and allow the menu prices to go up if they choose but tips for good service are still allowed?
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Old 08-02-2020, 06:05 AM   #81
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Re: Tipping Culture

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Who are they to say what tip they deserved?
They would be people. One of the things that people are capable of is making judgments.
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Old 08-02-2020, 09:12 AM   #82
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Re: Tipping Culture

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The servers are the ones theoretically being graded. Who are they to say what tip they deserved? It's akin to saying if a student didn't get the grade they thought they deserved, then they should shame the teacher. There's no grading scale for "deserved tipping scale" as it is subjective so there really is no such thing as an appropriate tip per situation, just general tipping guidelines.

What would Cuppee say to restaurants paying their servers minimum wage and still allowing tips to be optional? No service charge, just pay them appropriately and allow the menu prices to go up if they choose but tips for good service are still allowed?
I am not against any level of base pay. If the Minimum Wage is set as the base wage, it will just be priced into the meal costs. No one will notice outside maybe the lowest rung of the serving ladder.

So ya, that plus tips is fine.
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Old 08-02-2020, 01:02 PM   #83
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Re: Tipping Culture

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They would be people. One of the things that people are capable of is making judgments.
Yes, but their vote doesn't count.

If your boss gives you a raise that is lower than your expectations, you don't get to berate your boss without consequences and what you think doesn't ultimately matter.

Also consider the situation where people still have different ideas of what good service is and what a good tip is. Many more senior people still believe that 15% is an excellent tip. They don't deserve to be shamed (at least not by the server).
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Old 08-02-2020, 01:04 PM   #84
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Re: Tipping Culture

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I am not against any level of base pay. If the Minimum Wage is set as the base wage, it will just be priced into the meal costs. No one will notice outside maybe the lowest rung of the serving ladder.

So ya, that plus tips is fine.
Very good.

As a side note, I am curious as to what you would think if your dry cleaner, coffee shop or counter service place removed the tip jars but added a line for "service charge" to your bill.
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Old 08-02-2020, 02:29 PM   #85
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Re: Tipping Culture

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Yes, but their vote doesn't count.
Then it isn't even remotely a problem if they shame someone.
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Old 08-02-2020, 03:46 PM   #86
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Re: Tipping Culture

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Very good.

As a side note, I am curious as to what you would think if your dry cleaner, coffee shop or counter service place removed the tip jars but added a line for "service charge" to your bill.
I would be fine as long as it was done across the board such that it addressed the low pay 'counter staff' generally get paid.

I think most citizens would be fine knowing a dedicated part of their bill was going directly to the hourly wage of low wage workers.
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Old 08-02-2020, 08:30 PM   #87
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Re: Tipping Culture

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Then it isn't even remotely a problem if they shame someone.
I don't subscribe to that logic.
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Old 08-02-2020, 09:17 PM   #88
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Re: Tipping Culture

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I don't subscribe to that logic.
You haven't made a case for it being a bad thing, and you were the one who brought it up.

People generally complain publicly when they are unhappy with the behaviors of others. That is what shaming is.

Is there some specific principle that the servers are not following in doing exactly what is expected from normal human beings?

If you are just against using shaming and other forms of social pressure, then I'd strongly suggest that you are simply against social animals. This would be a valid stance, as social animals (other than dogs) are kind of a pain in the ass
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Old 08-04-2020, 08:56 AM   #89
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Re: Tipping Culture

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You haven't made a case for it being a bad thing, and you were the one who brought it up.

People generally complain publicly when they are unhappy with the behaviors of others. That is what shaming is.

Is there some specific principle that the servers are not following in doing exactly what is expected from normal human beings?

If you are just against using shaming and other forms of social pressure, then I'd strongly suggest that you are simply against social animals. This would be a valid stance, as social animals (other than dogs) are kind of a pain in the ass
If a server 'shamed' a customer in public in the restaurant because they thought the tip was insufficient, I think the owner would rightly fire that server. Even if that server was correct.

But maybe explain what you think 'shaming' means in terms of action taken to see if we are talking about the same thing? Would it be solely tied to someone giving 'no tip' or also to someone giving a tip the server thought 'was not big enough'?
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Old 08-04-2020, 10:28 AM   #90
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Re: Tipping Culture

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If a server 'shamed' a customer in public in the restaurant because they thought the tip was insufficient, I think the owner would rightly fire that server. Even if that server was correct.



But maybe explain what you think 'shaming' means in terms of action taken to see if we are talking about the same thing? Would it be solely tied to someone giving 'no tip' or also to someone giving a tip the server thought 'was not big enough'?
I wasn't the one who brought up the rampant shaming of low- and no-tippers that are apparently running amok, so I don't have any stories about them. I imagine they barely exist.

I'd be fine with them doing anything less severe than stabbing customers, if what you were asking what I would find personally acceptable. That seems rather unlikely, and I am allergic to hypotheticals.
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Old 08-07-2020, 01:51 AM   #91
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Re: Tipping Culture

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I wasn't the one who brought up the rampant shaming of low- and no-tippers that are apparently running amok, so I don't have any stories about them. I imagine they barely exist.
I know it's a message board but I don't understand why everything has to be hyperbole and blown out of proportion. I said tip shaming happens and is/was apparently accepted as part of the culture; I did not say it was running amok. That leap is yours.

It has been many years since I waited tables. I will concede that I can't remember the last time I saw it but I will also admit that I don't often frequent the types of places where it is more likely to happen.
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Old 08-07-2020, 02:13 AM   #92
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Re: Tipping Culture

What about shaming litterers ?

shaming a waiter is more likely to end in a gun death (like at that Burger King recently) than it is to effect change and introspection.

alas, we forge ahead

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Old 08-07-2020, 06:03 AM   #93
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Re: Tipping Culture

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I said tip shaming happens and is/was apparently accepted as part of the culture; I did not say it was running amok. That leap is yours.
I'll retract that leap.

I'm fine with it existing and being culturally acceptable. My question still stands: why don't you find it acceptable?
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Old 08-07-2020, 09:57 AM   #94
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Re: Tipping Culture

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Originally Posted by Schlitz mmmm View Post
What about shaming litterers ?

shaming a waiter is more likely to end in a gun death (like at that Burger King recently) than it is to effect change and introspection.

alas, we forge ahead

...
I think that by Tip Shaming they mean the 'Waiter shaming the customer for a small or non existent tip', not the 'waiter being shamed by the customer in the form of a small tip'.
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Old 08-07-2020, 10:22 AM   #95
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Re: Tipping Culture

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I'll retract that leap.

I'm fine with it existing and being culturally acceptable. My question still stands: why don't you find it acceptable?
I'll speak for myself as to why I would find 'Tip Shaming' unacceptable (assuming per my last post I am not misreading you guys) and would fire any staffer who did it. I am going to stick to the restaurant venue for ease here.

A tip is, by very deliberately and purposeful design, a very subjective measure given to the customer to judge the many components that go into the Service Package they have received at a restaurant.

That Service Package can be judged by the customer from the time they arrive at the restaurant, to when they reach their table, and all thru the actually process right up until they pay their bill.

There are so many factors that a different person might consider as part of their 'Service Package' such as :

- staff were negligent in engaging and communicating with them as they waited to be seated
- were sat but due to confusing of 'whose table it was' it took forever for server to appear
- Table, cutlery, plates, glasses not clean
- etc

I purposely left out a long list of WaitStaff 'specific' errors to demonstrate things beyond the server could, rightfully, impact the tip.

Now, i personally, do not generally reduce the servers tip for things generally outside their control, and think it would take something pretty egregious for me to do so, and I would probably call the Manager to the table, explain my grievance, and then and only then leave with little or no tip delivered. But it would not be wrong for others to do so.

So that is just one reason a Server should not 'shame' a customer.

Another is that it is 'discretionary' and meant to work out on 'average' for the server. Which means variability above and below the 'normal' or 'average' tip is built in. To 'shame' when below the average is simply the server saying 'I always want the AVERAGE or MORE, but never LESS than the average for the service I give' which is arrogant in a subject world. Just because the Server thinks they always do a good job does not mean THAT customer on THAT day perceived that they did. To say the customer must always see it as the server does is to remove the subjectivity.
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Old 08-07-2020, 05:25 PM   #96
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Re: Tipping Culture

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I'll speak for myself as to why I would find 'Tip Shaming' unacceptable (assuming per my last post I am not misreading you guys) and would fire any staffer who did it. I am going to stick to the restaurant venue for ease here.



A tip is, by very deliberately and purposeful design, a very subjective measure given to the customer to judge the many components that go into the Service Package they have received at a restaurant.



That Service Package can be judged by the customer from the time they arrive at the restaurant, to when they reach their table, and all thru the actually process right up until they pay their bill.



There are so many factors that a different person might consider as part of their 'Service Package' such as :



- staff were negligent in engaging and communicating with them as they waited to be seated

- were sat but due to confusing of 'whose table it was' it took forever for server to appear

- Table, cutlery, plates, glasses not clean

- etc



I purposely left out a long list of WaitStaff 'specific' errors to demonstrate things beyond the server could, rightfully, impact the tip.



Now, i personally, do not generally reduce the servers tip for things generally outside their control, and think it would take something pretty egregious for me to do so, and I would probably call the Manager to the table, explain my grievance, and then and only then leave with little or no tip delivered. But it would not be wrong for others to do so.



So that is just one reason a Server should not 'shame' a customer.



Another is that it is 'discretionary' and meant to work out on 'average' for the server. Which means variability above and below the 'normal' or 'average' tip is built in. To 'shame' when below the average is simply the server saying 'I always want the AVERAGE or MORE, but never LESS than the average for the service I give' which is arrogant in a subject world. Just because the Server thinks they always do a good job does not mean THAT customer on THAT day perceived that they did.
That is far too black and white. Believe it or not, servers have an equal right to judge customers and to act accordingly.

The restaurant owner, in turn, can decide to fire the server, as is their right. This, I imagine, is a pretty well-known consequence.

Quote:
To say the customer must always see it as the server does is to remove the subjectivity.
This does not follow from the rest. Shaming is an extremely mild act* and not even remotely the same as forcibly determining their own tip.

*using the ever-popular BrianTheMick Infallable Scale of Force.
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Old 08-07-2020, 09:04 PM   #97
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Re: Tipping Culture

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Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2 View Post
That is far too black and white.
it's my view. You don't have to agree. Your view can be green and red and that is fine.


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Believe it or not, servers have an equal right to judge customers and to act accordingly.
"right" is not really what we are discussing. In terms of 'rights' sure. "Appropriateness' is more what we are discussing and no, I doubt you would even find a tiny percent of servers who would agree with your view.

So at best you could see your view exists but only within a tiny minority position or outlier one. Again, my view.

Quote:
The restaurant owner, in turn, can decide to fire the server, as is their right. This, I imagine, is a pretty well-known consequence.
Yes, I said exactly this.


Quote:

This does not follow from the rest.
Sure it does.

For the server to say the 'tip is too small and you deserve shaming' is the server saying 'my assessment of my own service and that of this restaurant is that you are wrong. It was good and better than the tip level you gave. You are wrong and cheap and I will punish you for that and shame you.'



Quote:
Shaming is an extremely mild act* and not even remotely the same as forcibly determining their own tip.
Depends on the extent of the shaming. Is anyone else at the table with the person? Is he in a group for business? Are people at nearby table hearing?

Your view of the weight of that shaming may not be how the other views it. Again it is subjective and not for you to define as if you can for everyone else.

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*using the ever-popular BrianTheMick Infallable Scale of Force.
??
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Old 08-08-2020, 04:21 PM   #98
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Re: Tipping Culture

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it's my view. You don't have to agree. Your view can be green and red and that is fine.
I'm not currently prepared for that sort of discussion as it does not meet my preferences. Good luck in all of your endeavors!
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