Tipping views vary greatly from 'should it even be a thing' to 'how much is appropriate and on what', to 'what type of establishment should tip and which should not'.

In my lifetime (I am 52) I have seen a dramatic evolution in tipping.

This was pretty much the norm:

- tipping used to be almost solely limited to restaurant table service
- the expected calculation used to be 10%-15% applied after you removed the tax and liquor costs from bill
- of course bars focused on liquor got tipped (and usually generously) on that service alone or primarily
- food delivery service like pizza delivery used to get the coins or maybe a buck or two

Today what do I see:

- tipping has evolved past the restaurant, and in the next wave became common place in all/most service locations from grabbing a to go coffee from a shop or picking up your dry cleaning.
- tipping amount expectations have bumped up from 15% - 25% often pre-loaded on debit/credit machine as the expectation and requiring you manually change it if you want to do other.
- this tipping amount is on the full bill total including Tax and Liquor making it actually much more as compared to the past
- food delivery service now almost by default on the Apps include a standard 15% tip on the bill total. Meaning you see your 'Total', if you buy %60 of food as $69 with a $9 tip built in when you accept unless you go in and manually change it

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What are your views on tipping in these areas or others:

- Restaurant, Coffee shop, Food Delivery, Dry Cleaning P/U, other
- percentage? Pretax? Post Tax? Liquor in or out?
- delivery service






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Dispelling this myth before we start since it often pops up in this discussion.

- 'tipping is wrong, period. I should not be forced to pay the servers wage, the restaurant owner should pay that. That is why I refuse to tip.'

This argument is false. There is only one consumer and they pay the restaurant portion and the server portion regardless. If tip is removed the restaurant does eat that amount and simply pay his server more. Instead they build it in to the service costs, including tip portion, into the bill. So you end up paying the same or more as you now tip a set percent on every bill, built in as a service charge. It 'socializes' a payment (equal for all) as opposed to keeping it merit based (you the diner have discretion based on quality).

FreeRiders love to make that argument above but most are simply cheapskates and using that rationale as cover.

So lets stay away from the fallacious argument that it should be the restaurant owner and not you who should pay. YOU will always pay. The discussion is do you want 'discretion based on merit' or do you prefer 'no discretion, pay all servers the same via requirement'.

My views.

I consider myself a generous tipper. I do like to pay my server well for what I consider good service and will dock them (pay them lower or maybe nothing) for poor service.

In that regard I think 'The Tip' has great utility as compared to a system that builds it in and pays them all the same whether you are sitting at the table where you have a really great and attentive server or at the next table with a person sleep walking thru a shift where you have to constantly try and get their attention for your every need.

That said, I do think the prior system where you removed the Tax and Liquor first and then tipped was more logical. A dinner with a $20 bottle of wine or a dinner with a $200 bottle of wine does not require a different level of service. I follow the new norm of tipping on top of the liquor, however.

I find myself often taken aback at certain counter services like picking up dry cleaning when I go to pay and debit/credit machine is set up to default to a tip just asking you 'what percent'. You can manually change it but I often tip the minimum amount portrayed.

I am pro, 'tipping culture' versus 'forced payment' culture. I think the discretion is a positive thing. But I also think the constant creep of both amount (i have seen default options from 18%-25% preset) and industry creep (dry cleaner) may become problematic.

restaurants and bars should pay people a living wage.

This.

Is there any proof that a restaurant that pays horseshit wages to its staff passes on that reduction in its running costs to customers in lieu of tipping? Or is it the case that prices remain much the same, restaurants lower their overhead, and there evolves a subtle emotional blackmail situation where customers are required to prop up wages while owners make more money?

Minimum wage is so low and adjusted so infrequently that counter workers now beg for tips.

That's something that an honest business owner should be ashamed of, but none seem to care.

As far as tipping on tax and drinks, same thing. Here in NJ the tipped mw is 2 something.

Minimum wage should be higher and wait staff should earn it. Then we can go back to tipping 10-15 percent on the cost of the meal.

But I guess that ship has sailed.

Tipping culture in the USA.

Having tipping mandatory of discretionary does not generally change the 'wage' the server makes so this argument is fallacious.

If the customers meal costs are $25 and tip would typically be $3 it is $28 to the customer with the restaurant making $25 (including server wage) and the server getting the additional $3.

If instead they switch to BUILDING IT IN as a service charge and the bill comes out with a total of $28 with $3 denoted as 'service charge' you pay the same and the server gets the same.

So what you are really saying changes nothing but optics for the average server. The worst servers however are protected and the best servers are not rewarded.


see above

I hyper linked an article above where many restaurants in NYC where going tip-less. They just switched taking your discretionary tip line out and instead simply plugged it in as mandatory.

So if your bill looked like this prior

Food $25
Tip $3.75 (as recommended at 15% but you have the choice to change it) Total $ 28.75

Or if instead they switch to

Food $25
Service Charge - $3.75 (15%)
Total $28.75


It is no difference to you as customer and NO ADDITIONAL cost to the restaurant. The restaurant is not forced to pay more as a 'living wage', they just make you (customer) pay the tip as that part in a mandatory way.


that is a hard thing for many to digest and argue properly as the ONLY thing we are really debating here is whether you (the consumer) think discretion for the service element should be allowed. On arguments on both sides of that are fine.

But it really makes no difference to the average server or restaurant owner how make the same basic money regardless.

yes, i should have been more clear as I realize Australia and many European places build in the tip already.

the fact that you think this makes no difference to servers implies that you have never worked as a server or had a ridiculously blessed experience.

having a steady dependable living wage would be a MASSIVE improvement in life for 90% of servers. i know this is a poker site and some people came from and still live that lifestyle but having guaranteed moeny at the end of a shift/paycheck period to meet your bills, feed your kids, gas your car beats living on the swings of good days and bad days that servers and bartenders endure.

there were several days where a dick manager would schedule me day shift or the restaurant would just be dead or you'd just get a string of shitty people and i'd leave with 10 bucks and $2.83 an hour coming to me in my paycheck when i REALLY needed the money to meet some bills..


sure at optimum efficiency, tables/bar at capacity, and having everyone actually tip(which doesn't happen), it might only be an optics change, but that isnt the real world.

I know the industry just fine.

I have not seen data that shows on average the servers make less in a tipping environment than a non tipping one.

Servers can make a really good wage in Canada and the US. Sure some people don't tip but on average those who do tip will more than make up for those who do not.

I've known several servers who refuse to work at places that build in the tip or pool the tips as they make way more when they can get their tips, themselves. Even in the mid-low end I knew of servers who did not want to work in the places that pooled tips as they could make many times their wage off tips, if they could just keep their own.

Perhaps what you say is truer at the very lowest end of food service (Denny's, etc) but even that I would not be sure of that.

The article I linked in the OP speaks to that. Any move towards a 'tip free', 'BUILT IN' model, I have seen implemented in North America sees the restaurants typically lose their best servers, who quit and go to other tipping restaurants, while the mid and lower level servers basically make the same.

So in this hypo we are excluding the vast majority of servers that would benefit from the variable in order to make the theory workable? Cool story.

there are like 100k chain restaurants in the US and the “lowest end” likely employs FAR more servers than whatever top end you are imagining where the servers are so consistently tipped well they don’t care about money.

I don't think you would find many servers in mid - lower chains that would trade their tips for a paid hourly wage funded by the restaurant owner via a built in service charge.

I am not only speaking about high end restaurants but also the majority of mid to low end chains.

I just googled and found an IHOP forum for potential servers...

"...I've been a server for 15 years and have worked in franchise restaurants like IHOP to four diamond restaurants. In franchise restaurants you can make $40 one day and $190 the next but honestly it averages in the long run to about $25 an hour,..." cite


I don't think taking away tips would get them anywhere near the $25/hr they say they make which is in line with the experience I know of what Uni students and other servers make.

i think ott had a 3 year topic on this

we can argue back and forth about our anecdotal experiences in the restaurant industry (i rarely ever took home more than 100 dollars per shift on a great double shift when i worked at applebees in college) or even using the anecdotal evidence found on the site you linked, four or so comments down from the one you quoted, two comments say 50 to 80 dollars per day, and $40-50 per full shift.

regardless businesses should not be allowed to pay below living wages for work. if you want to say the server can choose between tips and 15$ an hour whichever is higher at the end of the shift that's fine. but let's not act like the businesses are doing anyone any favors, they are exploiting the hell out of people and expecting patrons to make it up and support their staff.

Oh i am not arguing against servers getting any base pay, set to whatever minimum wage.

I am solely talking about the 'tip' portion that sits above that and whether a server is better having the restaurant just take that in to their till via a service charge and instead pay the server a flat rate hourly pay.

I have known a ton of servers (I cooked in restaurants all thru high school and uni) and they love their discretionary tips.

And what you point to I totally expect. You will see disparity in tip income, Better servers will earn a lot more, average servers will be close to the average tip and lower end servers will struggle.

So the question is 'above and beyond that base hourly pay do you want merit and discretion (tipping) to determine or would you prefer a system in which the worst servers make the exact same as the best?

Why?

Ex-server both low- and high-end near the same age as OP.

Tipping culture is a scam. Service charge is a scam. Resort fees are a scam, but I accept that these things are part of the culture. I disagree that we can't say tipping culture is a scam because the most likely solution would be a differently implemented scam.

I'm pretty much a 20% tipper in restaurants with alcohol included and I'll typically do post-tax in the lower end places and pre-tax with bigger bills.

I used to adjust tip according to good service versus bad service, but I don't adjust downward anymore. That could just be because I've been fortunate not to have horrendous service in a long time.

Ideally, I would tip based upon performance which would have no basis on the price of the meal. Just as OP states that it takes the same service effort to serve a $200 bottle of wine versus a $20 one, I also believe that it takes the same effort to deliver a steak on a plate as it does to deliver a hamburger on a plate. Performance is always relative and for me, it isn't really worth the extra effort to worry about grading someone while I'm trying to have a good time so I'm going with the baseline amount with some extra for an experience enhancing service.

I don't tip any of the counter service jobs. I don't frequent coffee places that often but if coffee is >$5 for a cup, then the employees' wages are already accounted for. Because of my general thoughts on tipping, I don't do the tip jars at non-food establishments either like dry cleaners. Delivery people, yes. I understand that is inconsistent. I also tip drivers. I used to tip dealers when I played live.

I'm not really logical about tipping, but I do what I do.

Good post.

Do you agree that if tipping culture was wiped out in N.America, that the customers overall bill at the restaurants they attend would not generally be any less? That the Restaurants won't simply pay the extra to the servers and not pass that cost on to the customer in some form of line item in the bill?


So therefore the argument that 'owners need to pay a living wage, ergo I should not tip' is a false narrative. IF indeed restaurants do start paying a higher wage then you, the customer, will STILL pay it, just as a new line item and not the prior tip line.

In both methods you end up paying $E. The only thing you change is your discretion to reward better service and potentially deduct from worser.

Food costs _____________ $A
Alcohol Costs ____________$B
Sub Total ________________$C
Tip _____________________$D
Grand Total ______________$E



Food costs _____________ $A
Alcohol Costs ____________$B
Service Charge___________$C
Sub Total________________$D
Grand Total ______________$E

I tip well to female service (esp if they are cute and has good customer service) but i think tipping is overblown. I tip well base on the energy the server has. If someone has really good energy you get a big tip if i feel u have bad energy i will tip the minimal.

Is that your way of saying tipping preserves the stripping meritocracy?

Probably the best argument for abolishing tipping ITT.

Unless the service is bad, I tip 15-30%.

Because living people are expected to do the job.

why looking cute in life gives u an advantage so take care of your appearance. Looks matter in life, if you didn't know. Personality matters too which is more important but i don't discount looks

+1

At least until robots take over most jobs.