All of your arguments rely on a person already existing who was harmed. Considering lost income in a wrongful death suit only makes sense because a person died. You're liable to existing people for potential value of property damage. Neglecting a 4 year old is punishable because a person died. No one harmed were only potential people. I keep asking you to explain why a clump of cells, in that moment, is a person and you just keep assuming it is in your arguments without explaining why. What is a person? Why does someone become a person seemingly at the moment of conception by your standard but everything else in life is identifiably different at different stages of development?

This appears to be the crux of your argument, but I'm not picking up the gotcha.

The fact that you can identify an end result during nearly every stage of development just goes to show the inevitability of the process once it has begun. In the case of human development, by the time anyone knows they're pregnant, things are well beyond the "clump of cells" stage.

Infirm or disabled are still full grown human being with consciousness, not cells .

Consciousness is a vaguely defined illusion. Even using standard definitions, a newborn baby is not significantly more conscious than it was the day before birth, and there is no way to determine when a being becomes conscious. I would say that my dog has more consciousness (by typical definitions) than a newborn baby does.

Again born baby with a fully grown brain …..
Now if u want to argue half a leg for example is a conscious human being because it’s a part of a future full grown human be my guest , I will listen …

Whats got more “conscious” in your opinion between a flower and a 1 week embryo ?

Ps: is it wrong to end a life of someone being at the hospital with only his heart beating with machine breathing for him and with absolutely 0 brain activity for like 5 years ?
It’s still a full grown human.

Typically, by the time a woman knows she's pregnant, the baby has a rather clear and obvious head.

It's not a clump of cells or half a leg.



Who is this guy?

« By week 3, your early-stage baby (doctors refer to it as an embryo) exists as a tiny collection of about several hundred cells that are dividing rapidly and will continue to develop over the course of the coming weeks and months. »


https://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnan...ek/week-3.aspx

« So will your lone little cell miraculously become a girl or a boy? Though it will be months before you can find out for sure (if you decide to find out before delivery day), that remarkable determination has already been made, believe it or not »

Btw doctor Inso , where is the head after 3 weeks in the video ?

Ps:
And yet a lot of conservative have trouble with the gender issue …..
So it’s a baby right away without sex for months at the embryo level
but once it’s born it must have a sex when we speak about gender ?
But it was a baby without sex right ?
So why a human must have a sex speaking about gender ?

Strange ….

It's not that you're not picking it up, you're just being obstinate. You have so far refused to explained why the "inevitability" of the process matters at all instead of the current state of the zygote/embryo/fetus and when is it that a person that can be harmed comes into existence.

He already did.

If you shoot a 15 week old fetus it is murder. If you abort one it is part of a woman's body. Clearly the law itself recognizes "inevitability" matters. At the end of the day it is arbitrary. I don't even have a problem with abortion per se as a necessary evil in a society designed like ours. The problem is the ridiculous mental gymnastics (Inso's term, I prefer rhetorical ju-jitsu) people go through to try to make some biological based argument to justify it.

There is no biological based argument at all. It is purely cultural. That is why China allows abortion at any point, Iran doesn't allow it at all, and the US is somewhere in the middle, and every culture is the hero in their own story.

My man, approximately zero women find out they're pregnant at 3 weeks of development.

This is where we permanently part ways.

He didn't but feel free to quote where you think he did. I am glad that you at least admit all you have is a completely arbitrary appeal to culture. Of course there are biological arguments. Leaving aside the obvious that the mother's body can be harmed by both pregnancy and birth, the fetus lacks the biological mechanisms to feel pain or have any awareness before around 26 weeks, a time by which nearly all abortions have already occurred. There is no person there to be harmed by the vast majority of abortions.

How many hamsters did you go through as a child?

Continue the appeals to anything but logic.

It's kinda hard to argue with a psychopath.

Some dude gets horribly maimed in a car accident and Dr. Bubble_Balls over here is all "Eh, it's going to be a huge pain in the ass to rehab this guy. He can't feel pain right now and has no awareness. Just pull the plug."

Personal attacks are never a good sign for the strength of your position. A person in a car accident was a person before the accident, has the rights of a person, and if they are permanently braindead we don't consider it murder to pull the plug because no one's home anymore.

Doesn’t change anything that woman knows or not with the argument u were making.

Inso latest comment are not really serious and compare as equal any living autonomously entity (hamster , human , etc) with couple weeks cells .

I mean he can believe it’s the same but it won’t be taken seriously ….
Again the example of browser of choosing a living baby vs 5 embryo is clearly the answer on showing Inso ain’t right …..

Potential life expectancy cannot be equal to present life .
Let’s hope « minority report » movie won’t become a reality in the future …

thats news to me. thats 6 and half month. and how do you know that? there is no proof for this.

The right thing to do IMO. I need to get that living will done sometime.

It takes five seconds of google to verify this...

I think this is a case of a flat line brain wave. The brain has shut down and can't even keep the body alive anymore. The brain isn't thinking. The brain isn't even functioning subconsciously to keep the body breathing. The body can't eat so would have to be kept in a hospital or the like on a tube. With zero chance of recovery. In this case the person can no longer think or dream.

When they unplug the ventilator the body dies. But there will be no conscious or unconscious affect whatsoever.

I get it that religious people look at this like its still murder. That we are killing the soul. That somehow it should be up to God to decide when the person should die because that's what God does. Ultimately though there is a separation of Church and State and if the Government in the US believes that this is not murder but an important step to stop keeping a body alive when the medical equipment and cost could be better used elsewhere then that is the law. And a bunch of us are OK with it and would want the plug pulled if we were that body.

And the reason we would want the plug pulled is so that those that know us aren't in some kind of horrific limbo. Forced to continue visiting us for no reason or left to abandon us and have to live with that. And who pays for it? Everyone if there is insurance until the insurance runs out and ironically the person's bank account might get drained paying off the insurance. And how is that at all fair to the potential beneficiaries?

If somebody gets horribly maimed in an accident nobody would want them to be killed if they are still breathing and the brain is still functioning. Even if they can't breath but the brain waves are not flat then they would likely be kept alive, even if in a coma. The irony is that in most states the maimed person wouldn't be able to commit suicide or get somebody to help them commit suicide if that is what they want.

This:

Of course there's not 100% consensus on an exact time, but 26 weeks is definitely in the range. And 26 weeks isn't 6.5 months, it's actually slightly less than 6.

I'm as lib as they get but I think late term abortion is wrong.....

Almost no one thinks abortion is "good", especially late term. Even though I'm closer to pro-death than anyone I know, I don't like abortion, I only think it's the lesser evil when compared with a baby being born to someone who doesn't want it. Even if a late term fetus can feel some pain, it's likely to have a much more painful childhood if raised by the mother who is willing to have the late term abortion.

Seems like exactly 6 months to me.
52 weeks in a year...