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Old 09-20-2021, 01:25 PM   #76
washoe
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

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Originally Posted by Cuepee View Post
On a completely other front washoe, your last point triggered for me one of my pet peeves.


If you watch old movies you often see people trying to climb out the roof of a compromised non working elevator in an attempt to save their own lives.

A few years back elevator companies decided that 'escape hatch' was not worth the expense to be built in to every elevator for the few times it was ever needed.
They rationalized that as 'more people were likely to get hurt trying to get out, then stay put' which I am sure has some truth but the cost savings were significant for them.

I hate that though. Now if you are stuck in an elevator you are at the mercy of someone coming to save you. You can do nothing to save yourself. You are at their complete mercy sealed in that box.

So for instance even if you were near the ground floor but the elevator doors would not open in 9/11 and they could not spend the time or focus to try and get you out of the elevator as there was easier people to evacuate, you would be stuck there until the towers collapsed on you.

As a person with mild claustrophobia, that is a big fear for me. Getting on an elevator is fine. Being stuck on one with no control, not so much.
The escape hatch was one of the best inventions, you could free yourself, at least you had some sort of way out of this death trap. Without it the whole movie die hard wouldnt have worked. Remember Jon Mclane crawling through the elevator shafts?

FWIW elevators are a pet peeve of mine too. That they got rid of the escape doors an outrage! I just checked my elevator and you are correct there is no excape hatch.

They rationalized it away, the same way they rationalized access to the world trade center's roof among many roofs away. This is an absolute outrage. That Idiocracy costs all people trapped above the 100th floor their lifes. Probably also the 200 people stuck in the elevators. (who died too) Both groups had no way to escape.

Wtf right? They took access to the roof away from those people. Why?
Because dealing with people who want to party on the rooftop is a pain in the ass for them. People jumping (commiting suicide) was also a pain in the butt for them. But does this mean they can just lock access to the roof, when there is fire or other danger? Imo, the clear answer is no.

You are blocking vital emergency routes if you do this. As it was explained you had 4-5 helicopter circeling the roof of the world trade center. People tried to get the roof but had no access. The doors were automatically shut because the system crashed.

At the same time you had 200 people stuck in the elevators, with no way out.

This is like an overprotective parent who is doing more harm than good.

I say open every roof of every building. You will have people party and hang out at the roof, so what? You have to deal with that. Have cameras and better security. But if you can build a 1400ft building you have to have multiple emergency exit options, especially the rooftops- And you cannot lock the doors to the roof, definetely not.

People were rescued from the roof at the world trade center a few years earlier when the bomb attack happened. 12-14 people were lifted off the roof. And after they locked the roof for emergency exits which costed many their lifes. Probably over 1300 people.
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Old 09-20-2021, 01:53 PM   #77
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

I was not aware of the roof top issue. That does trigger me a bit.

And while i can see why they want Roof Tops locked, I cannot understand why, in an emergency they would not be programmed to unlock. All the security fire doors in my condo are programmed that way. They unlock when the alarms go off allowing free travel thru the building.

But beyond that this seems like an easy fix. In any areas where the Fire Department has an emergency rescue helicopter, the condo corp, office tower, (for buildings over a certain height), should have a security door code access from the outside that any Fireman can punch in and open up, from the outside access to the roof.

In these type of evacuations they almost always lower a rescuer down first who then secures people who they winch up to the helicopter. Or on some building rooves they can land.

Just have a rescuer open up the roof access doors. The cost for such access would be minimal in the overall cost of the build.

I cannot see a single reason why you would not have that option.

If you have firemen and police racing up these massive towers to bring people down, it makes perfect sense to evacuate as many from the top most floors from the roof, if you already have that type of service helicopter.
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Old 09-21-2021, 05:41 PM   #78
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

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I was not aware of the roof top issue. That does trigger me a bit.

Just have a rescuer open up.....

I cannot see a single reason why you would not have that option.
Rooftops are a standard way of rescuing people from a skyscraper.. you would think.

In our case it was a bit different. They flat out cancelled that option. Whoever made that call I don't want to be in their shoes.

The impossible plan was to evacuate people to lower floors, not upper ones. How the f is that possible if the lower floors are on fire?? That leaves only one option, the upper floors.

But the upper floors were inaccessible, the impact of the first airplane took out the power and water supply. Now the lifts were not working. The staircase was still accessible though damaged. But the system automatically did what it was programmed to do in the case of power outage, and locked the doors to the roof for I think automatically 2 hours. It could have been 4, but it doesn't matter, it was too long. They found people in the hallway to the rooftop. They couldn't unlock the doors. They would have needed a welding tool to open the doors. The evacuation plans simply didn't include the roof.

Last edited by washoe; 09-21-2021 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 09-21-2021, 05:57 PM   #79
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

What happened was that within minutes after the first impact 4-5 rescue helicopters were circling around the roof of the twin towers. What they couldn't see was any people of course. And within minutes the second plane hit the towers and almost missed one helicopter. So now the pilots were thinking wtf? They didn't see any people, feared for their lifes and gave up. And no, It wasn't too hot nor was it impossible. I found another helicopter pilot that rescues people for life who says this. Its all bs. The truth was those pilots were frightened to death and the people couldn't get to the roof. So Yes guys, heat, flames, within the first minutes is all bs. The people were on the windows, the air was breathable.



Rescuing from the rooftop was a completely possible option. Here is a guy that was exactly responsible for that task.

"There was nobody on the roofs to rescue. I have to disagree with one answer below. NYC did plan and train for this scenario. In fact a helicopter landed on the WTC during the 1993 incident. Since that incident the FDNY and NYPD conducted joint training where the NYPD would ferry specially trained high rise firefighters to the roof of the WTC or other high rise building. I was a member of an FDNY Company that did this (Ladder 15). We were known as a High Rise Roof Team. It was our mission to assist with ventilation, evacuation, search etc from the top down."

Answer to On 9/11, why didn't they rescue people from the roof using a helicopter? by Tony Acabono https://www.quora.com/On-9-11-why-di...et_type=answer
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:24 PM   #80
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

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Originally Posted by washoe View Post
What happened was that within minutes after the first impact 4-5 rescue helicopters were circling around the roof of the twin towers. What they couldn't see was any people of course. And within minutes the second plane hit the towers and almost missed one helicopter. So now the pilots were thinking wtf? They didn't see any people, feared for their lifes and gave up. And no, It wasn't too hot nor was it impossible. I found another helicopter pilot that rescues people for life who says this. Its all bs. The truth was those pilots were frightened to death and the people couldn't get to the roof. So Yes guys, heat, flames, within the first minutes is all bs. The people were on the windows, the air was breathable.



Rescuing from the rooftop was a completely possible option. Here is a guy that was exactly responsible for that task.

"There was nobody on the roofs to rescue. I have to disagree with one answer below. NYC did plan and train for this scenario. In fact a helicopter landed on the WTC during the 1993 incident. Since that incident the FDNY and NYPD conducted joint training where the NYPD would ferry specially trained high rise firefighters to the roof of the WTC or other high rise building. I was a member of an FDNY Company that did this (Ladder 15). We were known as a High Rise Roof Team. It was our mission to assist with ventilation, evacuation, search etc from the top down."

Answer to On 9/11, why didn't they rescue people from the roof using a helicopter? by Tony Acabono https://www.quora.com/On-9-11-why-di...et_type=answer
Did you just cite to quora?
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:47 PM   #81
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

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Did you just cite to quora?
Yes I did. Is anything wrong with that? He was a proffesional responsible for high rise building evacuations and coincidently for the world trade center. I I think he saw the videos. He happened to post on quora. What do you want me to do? Send him a message and ask him to post this on 2+2?

If you can read this (wallstreet journal, I have read it but it wants me to pay now) it is a pilot that says rescues were in fact totally possible.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1003784754436648720

Last edited by washoe; 09-21-2021 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 09-21-2021, 07:47 PM   #82
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

You probably only heard or read of people that said it was impossible. They are wrong those people say. (Me too, think about it!) The roof was huge, the air breathable which means not even hot enough to prevent breathing, and air rescue totally possible.
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Old 09-21-2021, 08:05 PM   #83
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

Here you can see live when it happened. It clearly shows not enough smoke on the roofs on one side because it was windy, the smoke gets blown only to one part of the roof. And overall not enough smoke to cause any helicopter to have problems. The rotors would have blown it away. Look at it, you can even see from above the roof. It's "light smoke"


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Old 09-21-2021, 08:57 PM   #84
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

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Originally Posted by washoe View Post

If you can read this (wallstreet journal, I have read it but it wants me to pay now) it is a pilot that says rescues were in fact totally possible.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1003784754436648720
A pilot also thought he could fly Kobe and his daughter to a basketball game. It's amazing how smart we all are after the fact.
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Old 09-21-2021, 10:17 PM   #85
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

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You probably only heard or read of people that said it was impossible. They are wrong those people say. (Me too, think about it!) The roof was huge, the air breathable which means not even hot enough to prevent breathing, and air rescue totally possible.
I don't think anyone should doubt rooftop helicopter rescues would have been possible as long as helicopters were in the area.

Helicopters access rooftops for transport in much of NYC. Not every rooftop is landing friendly though and without that having to winch everyone up one by one would be slow. If they can touch down then the numbers go way up.

Smoke is not generally a big problem for the helicopters as there typically is not enough everywhere to obscure them and you said the blades are big fan that pushes it away.

I just hate that options are being taken away from people to act in their own defense to save themselves such as the removal of the elevator escape hatch and denial to the roof.

I get that the actuarial tables will say 'if you are in the World Trade Center and need to access the elevator escape hatch to save your own life, you are already dead 99.99% of the time before you get a chance'. That said I still want my 0.01% chance to get out of that elevator myself instead of being locked in for certain death.

I keep thinking of that flooding in NY and if you got stuck in an elevator that shorted out at ground floor or underground. AS you see the water rising you are stuck there in the tin coffin just waiting to drown. No way to get yourself out.
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Old 09-21-2021, 11:21 PM   #86
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

Good to see washoe has left all his unrealistic ideas behind; now it seems that he's just beating up on the strawman of people suggesting that helicopter rescue wouldn't be possible.
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Old 10-11-2021, 09:09 PM   #87
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

Sorry for late reply bobo. Im not giving up

But the main take away should be, yes towers weren't safe enough to withstand a terror attack and still aren't.

To wrap this up bring a parachute or a rope if you plan to go inside one of these possible targets or any high building where you don't know how to get out in the case of emergency. Bless all people that lost their lifes.
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Old 10-11-2021, 09:12 PM   #88
washoe
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

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I don't think anyone should doubt rooftop helicopter rescues would have been possible as long as helicopters were in the area.

Helicopters access rooftops for transport in much of NYC. Not every rooftop is landing friendly though and without that having to winch everyone up one by one would be slow. If they can touch down then the numbers go way up.

Smoke is not generally a big problem for the helicopters as there typically is not enough everywhere to obscure them and you said the blades are big fan that pushes it away.

I just hate that options are being taken away from people to act in their own defense to save themselves such as the removal of the elevator escape hatch and denial to the roof.

I get that the actuarial tables will say 'if you are in the World Trade Center and need to access the elevator escape hatch to save your own life, you are already dead 99.99% of the time before you get a chance'. That said I still want my 0.01% chance to get out of that elevator myself instead of being locked in for certain death.

I keep thinking of that flooding in NY and if you got stuck in an elevator that shorted out at ground floor or underground. AS you see the water rising you are stuck there in the tin coffin just waiting to drown. No way to get yourself out.
Sorry for late reply cuepee. Yes all these options were taken away from those people and its a shame. That should also be a take away from this.
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Old 10-12-2021, 12:03 AM   #89
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

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But the main take away should be, yes towers weren't safe enough to withstand a terror attack and still aren't.
It depends on the terror attack.

You seem to suggest that building engineers and fire safety experts aren't taking the conclusions of the NIST investigation into the collapses very seriously.
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Old 10-13-2021, 12:48 AM   #90
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

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But the main take away should be, yes towers weren't safe enough to withstand a terror attack and still aren't.
Right, skyscrapers can never be made safe enough to save everyone if a plane is flown into them. Most of us probably would've guessed as much before 9/11, but if you learned something, that's great.

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To wrap this up bring a parachute or a rope if you plan to go inside one of these possible targets or any high building where you don't know how to get out in the case of emergency.
LOL.
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Old 10-13-2021, 09:40 AM   #91
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Re: Skyscraper/Tower Safety

Ya it is certainly not EV for every person entering a 'tower' to carry a parachute or a rope.

I am sure we would have more deaths just from heart attacks from the weight of carrying them around then we would have lived saved in tower collapses.

I admit that my keeping of rock climbing gear in my old office and in current condo is not overall EV. I am not statistically safer than other condo/office dwellers. But it is one of those things that has no negligible cost to myself to have it here, and can have massive value in the One in Millions chance I might need it.

To a lesser degree my choice parallels always wearing your seatbelt on a plane even when the sign does not require it. It is still recommended as any unexpected Clear Air Turbulence could plunge the plane into zero gravity and slam all the un-seatbelted off the roof of the plane but the based on the mathematics of it happening, really you are not any statically safer if you take advantage and take the seat belt off when they turn off the requirement light.

But statistics or not, if you end up being that reverse lottery winner in that bad spot, taking that measure may well save your life and since the cost to do so is none, ...why not?
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