Your lay opinions about what the medical community knew are not relevant. The surgeon general said something and the media, with 0 medical training, reported on it. If what the surgeon general said was wrong, that’s the definition of a good faith error. I’m contrasting that to vaccinated hosts who understand the medical expert's views on vaccination but who have decided to platform anti-vax lies for political/financial reasons.

You get kind of emotional/combative about this stuff so I’ll give an example that’s hopefully far away from your emotive triggers. When the LHC was built there was rightly a ton of pop media coverage on it. Much of the coverage could be split into good faith and bad faith.

Good Faith: The LHC is searching for the Higgs Boson, the mysterious god particle, responsible for all mass in the universe!
Bad Faith: The LHC will recreate conditions a few seconds after the Big Bang that could create a mini black hole which could destroy the Earth!

Both of those blurbs are totally wrong. But one makes mistakes completely understandable for a good faith lay reporter, while the other is clearly platforming nonsense for clicks and to re-enforce hardcore anti science skepticism. To draw any ludicrous equivalences between the two or claim the former somehow makes the latter possible is superficial and crazy.

The 'Mask don't work' early advice by the CDC and Fauci was a big mistake and they should have owned as opposed to trying to spin it.

If indeed it is a shortage, saying 'they don't work' as a way to preserve stock is just a bad lie. It is saying we cannot trust you with the truth.

Instead what happened was that the Trump Admin was so against what they thought the masks would signal to the public and how that might impact the Stock Markets that they pressured the CDC to take a strong anti mask position on what was thin science at the time.

But the main reason that CDC 'excuse' falls apart is because even if there fear was thin inventory and not having citizens make a run on masks thus depriving the Front Line Workers the inventory they never acted upon it. There was all sorts of N95 mask inventory available all across the US thru Jan, Feb and into early March that the gov't was not buying up to provide to Front Line Workers. Eventually much of that stock was bought up by charities and sent back to China who was now desperately low on masks and as the manufacturer that should have spurred serious concern in the US.

The science was now, by March, clear that masks were an important part of the battle, especially for Front Line workers and while the last bits of inventory were being transported back to China (by Trumps own State Department) they did nothing to secure the supply for use in the US.

So again telling average citizens the lie of 'they don't work' to preserve them for Front Line Workers while doing nothing to secure them for them is terrible.

Despite the guidance from the CDC I secured my own N95 masks from Amazon in February for myself and family despite covid not even really being landed yet in the N.America in any serious way. I felt erring on the side of having them was the better bet as opposed to finding out we needed them and could not get any.

But I ended up taking them all up the road, unopened to the Local Fire Hall, once it was clear in March they would need them and the supplies would be very short, and I gave them all to a Fireman who thanked me .

All of this is fair, but the conversation is on whether it makes sense to separate Don Lemon having Fauci on to say whatever he said on masks vs Tucker Carlson seeking out the most prominent, well credentialed anti covid vaccine guest he can find because he knows his audience will reward him for it.

And i could forgive the lie if they were scrambling to buy up the supply of N95 masks to secure them for at risk Front Line Workers, but they were not.

They were letting the limited supply leave the country. They had a Texas company that was the sole US manufacturer of masks petition and beg the gov't directly saying they could retool and ramp up mask manufacturing instantly providing millions of masks for FLW and they were ignored.


So if indeed Fauci and the CDC were concerned about a lack of masks for FLW and a run on inventory they did nothing about it.

And I support the CDC and Fauci generally outside of this so I am not trying to pick on them.

Me too. I understand science....and how it 'works'.

That Feb 2020 messaging was poor (at best)

and ed'a,,,,, yes the immediate thread topic was about media and its varied responses.

Is this for real or some great irony

Maybe I am biased because I have several physicians in my family, but it seems pretty basic that a mask could help stop the spread of a virus in that family. Of course you need an expert opinion to cite. The entire world outside of the U.S. exists for that, and they all said mask up. This was a politicized issue from the beginning, and anything coming out of the Trump administration should be viewed with some degree of skepticism.

Instead the media just acts a stenographers of the powerful. I try to withhold individual blame- everyone has their mortgage to pay. At the same time, let's maintain the ability to accurately depict what is happening and not pretend these institutions are functioning correctly when they are lying to us and manipulating us.

Didn't really follow Fauchi much but the situation with was PPE pretty clear from the UK. Policy/messaging advice followed reality constraints on the science rather than the truth. The whole 'message' thing by government is a huge mistake imo. Once it's the message that matters then it become about clarity and impact rather than the truth which is usually messy and awkward. That message is primarlly for people who know **** all about science because a) that's most people and b) many who do know about science listen to the science rather than the political messages.

Specifically given the reaction to no shortage of toilet rolls it's easy to see why the message that 'masks will help save your lives but there's a shortage so dont buy/use them' could be seen as a very stupid political message.

There are various actions governments could have taken. Requisitioning masks, prioritising making/sourcing mask, not ****ing up so badly next time etc etc. This is where they abysmally failed on PPE and no amount of messaging was ever going to be anything but unsatisfactory.

I think what we've seen is governments not having adjusted to modern times in terms of messaging. It used to be that the government could control the message, tell people what they needed to know (or we could cynically say, what they wanted them to know), and everyone was happy (more or less- I am oversimplifying). The landscape has changed massively in the last few decades, and especially in the last few years. We've reached a point where absolutely nothing will be taken at face value, and a seemingly growing percentage of the population seem to assume everything they're being told is a lie. I think there are times when it makes sense for government to filter information to a certain extent, but that is becoming increasingly difficult. People demand every last scrap of information, but unfortunately some have little ability to understand/interpret that information properly, and others willfully misinterpret it and spread misinformation as widely as they can. I don't know what the answer is, but governments need to start communicating with that in mind.

As for masks, here in BC I think it was understood that mask shortage was part of the problem in the early days, but I also think there truly was a belief among health experts that masks weren't especially effective relative to other measures.

While many governments handled the mask issue poorly, I expect it had little direct impact on outcomes. However, it's possible it's had an impact more indirectly, by creating confusion and adding to mistrust. I don't think the government is solely to blame for that, but they've played a sizable role.

Wasn't this about the behavioural problems. There's a serious issue of people behaving in a more risky manner with a mask than they would without a mask. Compounded by incompetent mask usage - particualrly not covering the nose which seems tragically common whenever I venture out.
If government is going to 'message' then hammering home good masks usage would seem a good place.

I agree with your main point about trust. Thta's one of things I find so odd about the messaging idea - the idea we should listen to what Boris Johnson, Matt Hancock, etc think are good messages on covid are totally bizarre bordering on the surreal. When it coems to covid they're basically idiots even if we trust their intentions. [That's the UK but not much of row is impressing either when it comes to leaders].

The Trump Admin put the CDC in an impossible position by not allowing them to be scientists only and seeing their credibility as something they could use.

You could see how much they were pressuring them in the early days to protect the economy (Trumps stock market) due to the legit fears that a collapsing economy is also a Health risk.

They used that truism to pressure the CDC officials to paint much rosier positions, that 'all will be well', 'all will be handled' in those early days and I can certainly understand how tough it would be for these scientists to break with that and instead say 'tough medicine is required and I will not support this optimistic 'it is all going to go away' type talk'.

All of them at the start were playing that game for Trump but Fauci finally broke away from it, (I think in April) and became more of a straight talker earning the scorn and demonization of Trump and his minions.

There are certainly times to be optimistic and believe the best in the face of tragedy and it is a very tough argument to tell the POTUS and his supporters 'this is not that time. This is the time for tough medicine that might spur people to act appropriately'. Those talks are inherently political so you can understand the bind the CDC scientists were in when they would have to tell the POTUS and his minions 'you guys are wrong on the messaging and politics required right now and I will not support that.'

They would then pressure them to 'stay in their lane' and let them handle the politics of it, while demanding the CDC officials go out front and use their credibility to be the voice of it.

Terribly tough spot.

I know the Riggie stuff has mostly become a joke but would anyone bet against there being no validity to this info now coming out?

I wouldn't bet against it. It is not been corroborated yet but plausibility of some efforts in this arena are certainly high, imo.


it's a very sensational article with a lot of advocacy, not just journalism so I will wait to see what, if anything follows this from any investigation in to it.

Must be nice to have this sort of prescience.

I mean, how does he know these things so clearly in advance??

Trump Says He’s ‘Not a Believer in the Integrity of Virginia’s Elections’ on Eve of Crucial Gov. Vote: ‘Lots of Bad Things Went On’

Republicans Are Already Claiming the Virginia Election Has Been Rigged

Riggies are doing such a poor job that I have to keep us up to date on these big dates.

Who knew today was a big riggie day?




QAnon supporters gather in downtown Dallas expecting JFK Jr. to reappear
Some believe the reappearance of John F. Kennedy’s son, who died in a plane crash in 1999, will bring about the reinstatement of Donald Trump as president.

Scores of QAnon believers gathered Tuesday afternoon in downtown Dallas in the hopes that John F. Kennedy Jr. would appear, heralding the reinstatement of Donald Trump as president...



One post from a widely followed QAnon social media account said that after Trump was reinstated as president, he would step down and JFK Jr. would become president. Then former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn would be appointed as his vice president and Trump would ultimately become the “king of kings,” ...

The QAnon conspiracy theory centers on fealty to Trump, who adherents believe will dismantle a shadowy “Deep State,” which they believe comprises leftist politicians and celebrities who are pedophiles...

lol

I hope whoever came up with the JFK Jr subplot got a bonus

Shame the two Qderps in this thread have pretty much poofed after so many failed predictions. I would be mildly amused to know how this Trump Kennedy thing was even created. Almost sounds like a couple Qbosses made up the weirdest thing they could think of for fun, and there you go - derps spend money on signs and have a little gathering. I have no interest at all in researching it, but if any of the Qderps want to share their thoughts on this thing that would be great (along with a new date for the Pope arrest).

That's a respectable attempt. However, there is very little good faith happening in politics. The war of alternative facts was being waged by both sides before it was declared by Kelly Ann Conway, and has been continuously waged. Saying something is good faith is not saying anything about political actions or rhetoric; that itself is just another thing not really said in good faith. The best you can say about the lies of Russiagate compared to the lies of the Riggies is that the Russiagate lies at least were quietly retracted for the sake of posterity or to maintain the appearance of integrity by the establishment media. I don't think that's much of a defense or any indication that the Russiagate lies were, serially and with giddy zeal, spread in good faith.

The claims about the efficacy of masks were no different fundamentally, straight up deliberate lies in order to achieve public cooperation with some agenda. Perhaps telling Americans the truth, that we have mask and other supply shortages, might have energized public pressure toward political action and not have instead contributed to the erosion of trust in institutions which could be, in some part, responsible for all this independent thinking about the vaccine.

How do people make these big ass signs and flags so quickly?

I agree until the last sentence.

Independent vaccine thinking spreads everywhere all over the globe.

Anti vaxxers existed in USA long long before covid came about. It is even a minor political issue in elections pre 2020.

Yeah most of what's happening does fit into a longer term trend. People stopped trusting government around the Vietnam/Nixon era and it's never really come back. Not to mention the pharmaceutical industry has a rancid reputation. I can't help but think every new iteration of mass deceit destroys a little bit more trust.

This is your question in the face of mass crazy? Who knows how long these delusions metastasize before they erupt into the public square. The JFK thing might have started years ago.

My question is do these people not realize that if JFK Jr. was alive he would have a good shot at being the person they most hate in the world?

How do you go from 100s of nut jobs to mass crazy?

Ya, I don't think they think all of that stuff through lol But there have been some comparisons trying to connect the Kennedys&Trumps in that realm for a while. There's a tiny sliver there to grab on to but it's pretty flimsy.

I know I get railed on a bit round here for my antireligious views, but I'd posit that the Venn diagram of these nutjobs and young earth creationists is comprised of concentric circles. I think something like 35-40% of the adult population in the US are YECs.