"Abortion is murder!"

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...h-penalty-bill

If you believe a fetus is a living human with all rights afforded to American persons, and as such claim abortions are murder...how do you stop short of supporting the above policy?

Vast majority of GOP voters who are staunchly pro-life are cool with punishing (though not life in prison or death penalty, usually) doctors, but want to exonerate entirely the 'murder co-conspirators' who are 'conspiring' to 'murder' the most 'vulnerable people' in America.

How is that consistent at all? How are you law & order but willing to wholly forgive 'lethal planning' and/or the execution of said plan against 'babies'?!

Is it entirely a desire to make their values palatable enough politically to potentially influence policy (IE make abortion illegal)? What do these people say when asked why they're Law & Order pro lifers but won't execute those conspiring and killing America's 'most vulnerable population'?

The political-religious belief that God doesn’t count sins if you are doing them under the orders of a Godly government. The God version of the Nuremberg Defense.

Spank! Been years since we were in a thread together. How've you been?!

I was searching to see the Muslin view on abortion and if it's at all similar to the Christian right in America.
To my surprise, Islam seems to have a rather liberal viewpoint on the matter.
According to Wikipedia, "the Quran does not directly address intentional abortion, "
" In Islam, a fetus is believed to become a living soul after four months of of gestation, and abortion after that point is generally viewed as impermissible. "

The Christian right is a backwards, primitive movement that wants to take this country back into the dark ages.
It's actually all about control. Control and maintaining power.

By this standard every Muslim in the world should be hunting down and killing apostates. And all Evangelicals should be boycotting public schools that teach evolution. Clearly in the real world people, as groups and individuals, make choices that are inconsistent with their dogma, mainly to maintain social stability.

You could literally come up with thousands of examples where there is obvious inconsistencies in every "culture". I have no love for the conservative ant-abortion movement, but I don't find the article particularly honest or useful.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/cou...on-is-illegal/

There are currently 26 countries where all abortions are illegal. It does not matter if the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest. Having an abortion is never acceptable under the law in the following nations:

Andorra
Angola
Congo-Brazzaville
Congo-Kinshasa
Dominican Republic
Egypt
El Salvador
Gabon
Guinea-Bissau
Haiti
Honduras
Iraq
Laos
Madagascar
Malta
Marshall Islands
Mauritania
Micronesia
Nicaragua
Palau
Philippines
San Marino
Sao Tome and Principe
Senegal
Suriname
Tonga

As mentioned, these nations make abortion illegal no matter what. There are another 37 countries that ban abortion unless an abortion would save the life of the mother. These nations are:

Afghanistan
Antigua & Barbuda
Bangladesh
Bhutan
Brazil
Brunei Darussalam
Chile
Cote d’Ivoire
Dominica
Guatemala
Indonesia
Iran
Ireland
Kiribati
Lebanon
Libya
Malawi
Mali
Mexico
Myanmar
Nigeria
Oman
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Paraguay
Solomon Islands
Somalia
South Sudan
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Syria
Tanzania
Timor-Leste
Tuvalu
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
Venezuela
West Bank & Gaza
Yemen

-The Alabama law would put Alabama in the second group. Actually Alabama is more "liberal" than most of these countries, because most of these countries the women getting the abortion would be criminally prosecuted (in some cases very severely) whereas the Alabama law does not criminalize the women, only the doctor (at least that is my understanding, correct me if I am wrong).

-It seems like between these 2 groups outlined, most of the countries that self-identify as Muslim are included. In practice, it seems Muslim countries and the religious right are pretty similar in how they approach abortion. So I don't find it very honest to try to vilify one and give the other a pass.

Western esotericism- the soul/spiritual being enters into the fetus at about 28 days . At conception, when the sperm penetrates the ovum , the combined entity enters into a chaotic state ( a non formed activity) and from the cosmos the fetal form is generated , or that form of a human being which one could say is "heredity which is form".

The human being or individual soul spiritual being who had planned to come to earth within a specific race, gender, geography, country, family , clan and individual parents had in some measure, with cosmic aid, planned his entry into the life of the earth.

This plan for earth life is very much related to "karma" or the compensation of a man's deeds in previous lives which can further his spiritual development. Its not all about "karma", a boon to mankind, and reincarnation is not forever .

Modern thinking deals with "dead" thoughts and so the fetus, a cosmos in and of itself is placed along side the corpse of man, potassium permagnate, so to speak.

Why don't they fully exonerate mothers who conspire to murder babies?

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In these times education is paramount for we are in the age of the "free" man which specifically works within the panoply of nation, or law, but in the moral creates for himself his moral tone. The idea of "commandment" coming from one's nation or religion or other centers of power is a denying of a real "freedom" of the developing man.

This is why an educated population( in these cases the female and male)with respect to reincarnation and karma can give one the necessary comprehension of "birth" and "death" and in this the individual, male or female, can make an enlightened judgment.

A soulless science leads to decadence laid flat on the plains of the earthly spirit.

By the by the time between incarnations is, during present time, approximately 800 years to which during half of this time the soul/spiritual being is preparing for the earth in which he gains fruits which cannot be gained in the journey through the spirit land.

The 800 years is not fixed( just a general idea) and is individually dependent as to what the individual brings forth an ennoblement within himself and for all men.

Please note: this isn't the religion forum. Much of the content of your last two posts are pretty off-topic, I think.

No, not religion, but common sense but if you feel this belongs in religion then by all means transfer what I wrote to that forum or do what you will.

I would ask you to justify the idea of "life" from the scientific perspective. What we are seeing today is no more than marauding legalisms seizing the being of man into a dark state of comprehension.

The best to you.

Abortion is a gray area and to be honest, I'm not for indiscriminate abortions. I actually pretty much agree with the Muslim view.
I would not consent to allow a woman to have an abortion after a certain timeframe.
It seems the Alabama law only criminalizes the doctors performing the abortion and not the woman getting the abortion. But as the op has brought to our attention, Texas is planning more extreme measures, where woman will indeed be criminalized. The Alabama law was purposefully made as extreme as possible with the intent of going to the supreme court to roll the ball and making it a country wide forefront issue once again. It's only a first step to more extremism down the line.

The abortion issue in this country is as much a political issue as a religious issue.
It only became a major crying call for the Evangelicals in the 70's.
Criminalizing woman who have abortions makes them felons. Felons lose their voting rights. The abortion rate for Black woman is 4 times that of White woman.

Planned parenthood centers are a vital, affordable health care provider for poor black woman.


Some of the countries on that list may seem surprising at first sight but not really. Ireland for example is very Catholic and only until recently has divorce even been allowed.
Stating that Alabama is more liberal than Afghanistan is hardly an argument for Alabama!

I think it is fair to make the point that the justification for legal abortion in the US depends on one accepting a premise (for when life begins) that billions of people in the world and tens of millions (hundreds of millions?) within the US itself don't accept.

However, when you start proselytizing your own narrow religious beliefs as revealed truth, then you are going down the same road, that leads nowhere.

Perhaps this issue is an indication that "diversity is not always strength," and there really is no way to come to a compromise; because the entire debate centers around differing fundamental beliefs along mostly arbitrary lines (IMO).

You have quoted one statement that as far as I can tell isn't true, and are making allegations of a political strategy I have never heard expressed before ever, making me wonder how true it is.

-First off, the Texas bill is a bill that was proposed by one senator, with some degree of support, that has already been rejected once, and has no chance of being passed as is. And there is a good chance it will never even be heard in the full house floor. So, conflating this to the statement you made seems very inaccurate.

-For the second point, I have never even heard it suggested that part of the rationale for criminalizing abortion is a political ploy to disenfranchise black women who have abortions, will become criminals, and lose their rights to vote. Do you have any evidence this is an actual strategy, or has ever happened to any extent?

Again, we are coming back to the same issue. The insistence of so many to strawman and paint "the other" as dishonestly as possible to discredit them. Both sides do it, and it is just extremely counterproductive to anything (other than perhaps building in-group bonds through demonizing and dehumanizing outsiders).

I've moved carlo's last post here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...rtion-1743735/

For anyone who wants to participate in that line of discussion.

You're right, I can't prove what I said about abortion being a political ploy necessarily, it's mostly an opinion. But it's an opinion formed from various articles I read over the years that I can't pinpoint now, and from logical deduction. Maybe we don't want to make this argument into a race argument. So I'll just leave it at that.

I stand by my argument though that conservative politics in America has turned into backwards and ignorant politics though.
Just look at all those countries on your list.
Is this who America wants to be compared with?