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Old 10-13-2021, 12:14 PM   #51
Inso0
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

Trolly, for instance, is extremely sour about the fact that he still lives with his mom and takes it out on others.

Life isn't over at 35. There's plenty of time to figure it out.
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Old 10-13-2021, 12:24 PM   #52
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

Certainly there is a pettiness to human nature. A natural tendency and emotion that is tied to jealousy that makes people petty and dismissive and often leads to them wanting to see the person fail, rather than see a success they are not a part of.

There are plenty of reasons to be critical of Musk and I don't shy away from them but there is also a very irrational hate, that makes some have to suggest he deserves no credit in any of the businesses he has been a part of.

Paypal, Tesla, SpaceX, all would have been better off without him. He was only a drag on everything he touched that had to be over come. ... or so they need to convince themselves.

So weird.
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Old 10-13-2021, 12:37 PM   #53
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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Originally Posted by Cuepee View Post
I did not see your post when I posted Henry Ford as an example.


I honestly do think that many people (especially on the left) do not understand the business process and think there is an element of magic and everything that defines success is an original PHD work or otherwise worthless.

- Bill Gates - Hype job, failure. Computers, existed. Internet existed. Software existed. Anyone could do it.

- Warren Buffet - Hype job, failure. Creates nothing. Just uses patient capital to support his investee companies to superior returns. Everyone could do it, and anyone would if Buffet was not around. Easy.

- Steve Jobs - Hype job, failure. Actually did sell a ton of hype to zealous buyers with very little substance behind it at first. Took their money and investments and used it to eventually achieve a world leading company. (This is actually the model Musk is most chasing).


And the point is not to say that advancements in these areas would not exist without them, on an infinite time scale, as that is probable given enough time.

The question is why some argue these guys do not deserve credit just because they think someone eventually would have done something similar enough.

Why such a need to denigrate and try to minimize the Entrepreneur and Leader?
It's not that 'anyone' could do these things. It's that 'someone' was going to do it.

And why knock a guy who has money and power who acts like a prick ?

Why not ?
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Old 10-13-2021, 12:39 PM   #54
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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Because the success of others makes them more aware of their own perceived failures and shortcomings. It's really just that simple.

"Pffft, I could've done that too if I had access to a hundred million dollars. He's not so special."
What shortcomings do I perceive in myself that makes me understand that we all possess assets and liabilities in our character and that we all live in the same world and live off of each other to a greater or lesser degree ?

Asking for a friend.
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Old 10-13-2021, 01:34 PM   #55
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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It's not that 'anyone' could do these things. It's that 'someone' was going to do it.

And why knock a guy who has money and power who acts like a prick ?

Why not ?
It is more the view that no business person, not Henry Ford, not Jobs, not Gates, not Musk.. none of them deserve an ounce of credit and all deserve disdain because 'someone else would have done it', that is the discussion here.

I am knocking Musk. I have no issue with that. But when you extend that out to deny he or the other Founders have no value in the companies they spawn, zero and actually were a liability, it then goes into crazy zone.

it becomes more like Politics where you just deny anything and every thing positive or even neutral about a person simply because they are not on your perceived side.

You can see I am being associated with Musk cultist because I simply give him some credit for certain areas of his success. Nope, just irrationally hate on everything or you must be a cultist lover.

Fact is, you are much closer to being a cultist if you so identify with 'sides' that you cannot be objective.


It is sad when all objectivity is lost in every single area of life.
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Old 10-13-2021, 01:44 PM   #56
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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Originally Posted by Cuepee View Post
It is more the view that no business person, not Henry Ford, not Jobs, not Gates, not Musk.. none of them deserve an ounce of credit and all deserve disdain because 'someone else would have done it', that is the discussion here.

I am knocking Musk. I have no issue with that. But when you extend that out to deny he or the other Founders have no value in the companies they spawn, zero and actually were a liability, it then goes into crazy zone.

it becomes more like Politics where you just deny anything and every thing positive or even neutral about a person simply because they are not on your perceived side.

You can see I am being associated with Musk cultist because I simply give him some credit for certain areas of his success. Nope, just irrationally hate on everything or you must be a cultist lover.

Fact is, you are much closer to being a cultist if you so identify with 'sides' that you cannot be objective.


It is sad when all objectivity is lost in every single area of life.
No, that's taking it too far. They deserve credit for what they do well and criticism for what they do poorly.

That being said,
Musk is in the top two list for richest guys in the world. He's fair game. I don't think he's losing sleep over it.
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Old 10-13-2021, 01:58 PM   #57
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

Agreed.

And I don't approve the sycophantic near worship that seems to have got attached to this group of celebrity CEO's.

I am old enough to remember when a CEO being paid well meant he was a comfortable millionaire, and not a multi billionaire. Especially those who were not founders of the companies they joined and are amongst the professional rotating CEO ranks.

They made them celebrities as a way to hype up the stock ('oh we got a magic man. Let the stock soar!') but now the top pay is not being earned by most of them at the proportions they contribute. Many are paid mass amounts when the companies do nothing but decline in their tenure and they eventually leave with a great package in tow.

That was a mistake.
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Old 10-13-2021, 02:15 PM   #58
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

Quote:
Originally Posted by washoe View Post
Cliffs:
I don't think you should utter another word about Tesla safety until you provide some evidence to back up this amazing claim:

Quote:
Originally Posted by washoe View Post
Self driving mode of teslas is a death trap
Or if you don't have any, just admit it was extreme hyperbole that you aren't able to back up.
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Old 10-13-2021, 03:09 PM   #59
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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I don't think you should utter another word about Tesla safety until you provide some evidence to back up this amazing claim:


Or if you don't have any, just admit it was extreme hyperbole that you aren't able to back up.
Bobo I linked a few articles. I think I can very well back this up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by washoe View Post
Cliffs:
- 'Elon Musk suggests Autopilot not to blame for fatal crash'
- this is bs, the wives reported their husbands were going to test the autopilot.
- nobody was in the drivers seat, again.

www.bbc.com/news/technology-56799749.amp

Look what he said on Joe Rogan.
'Tesla CEO Elon Musk said on a Feb. 11 episode of the Joe Rogan Experience podcast: "I think Autopilot's getting good enough that you won't need to drive most of the time unless you really want to."'

This lead to this and to a few other accidents with the autopilot. You just cannot make claims like this publicly. Like I said at least 10 people took his word for it

'Nonetheless, many Tesla fans and influencers share videos on social media that show people driving hands free for prolonged periods, asleep at the wheel or with nobody in the driver's seat.

For example, actor Jamie Foxx shared a video on his YouTube channel where he pretended to be asleep at the wheel of a Tesla Model 3, operating it hands free with his eyes closed. In January this year, as The Drive reported, a teen and his mom made a video in which he pretended to sleep at the wheel of a Tesla and then climbs into the back seat for a snooze.

In Germany, a Munich court actually banned Tesla from using phrases equivalent to Autopilot and Full Self-Driving capability in its advertising, because they found this language misled consumers and overstated the capabilities of the cars.'

http://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/04/18/n...as-report.html
Here are the problems with the autopilot as described by an expert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by washoe View Post
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53349313
'Bold claim'
'IHS Markit analyst Tim Urquhart said level five autonomous driving was the "holy grail" of the industry.

"It's a typically bold claim by Mr Musk," he said.

"Even if Tesla can reliably roll out the technology in a production environment, the regulatory environment in all the major markets is way behind allowing completely autonomous vehicles on the road."

Apple-backed firm aims for one million robotaxis
GM's Cruise unveils its first driverless vehicle
Delivery van with no 'human controls' tested in US
Some Tesla users were already misusing the current technology, Mr Urquhart said.

"I've always slightly questioned the naming of the Tesla system," he said.

"The fact that it's called Autopilot, when it's only a level-
two system, is I think problematic."
'



"There are no basic requirements with level five - it has to be absolutely bulletproof, fool-proof, tested in real world environments to the nth degree."
And finally this: At a tesla exebition in china, a woman stood on the hood of the tesla and screamed that her tesla mailfunctioned. There are numerous events where teslas batteries just exploted and cought fire. Even from some high profile people. Pls read this article:

Cliffs: tesla has a problem with burning batteries and so do the fire departments:
http://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/18/bu...texas.amp.html

“It took four hours to put out a fire that normally would have taken a matter of minutes,” Constable Herman said, adding that it took more than 30,000 gallons of water to extinguish the fire."[/QUOTE]

Last edited by washoe; 10-13-2021 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 10-13-2021, 03:36 PM   #60
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk




So yes the battery can set fire out of the blue, but it is unlikely. When it does that you are screwed though. It just keeps buring. Some people overestimated the autopilots abilities, but that was due to elons bold claims imo. Anyways he did some great things. I was one of the first people who really used and apreciated paypal. Im just mad at his dogecoin hype. When he hyped doge it was around 60 cents, that was the time him hosting SNL. Now its at 20 cent. So if you put in all your money, its value now is one third. That is a set back which pisses of lot of people now.

Cliffs, this video tells you that teslas are actually pretty safe:
(Title is clickbait and misleading)
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Old 10-13-2021, 04:24 PM   #61
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

Cars = Dangerous.

Trucks = Really, Really, Really Dangerous.

Sorry W. I'm not here because I'm mature.
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Old 10-13-2021, 04:25 PM   #62
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

Tesla’s Fully Self Driving Autopilot is perfectly safe if you remember that it’s actually a glorified driver assist and not an actual self-driving autopilot. The danger comes in when hardcore Branch Elonoans who believe the hype try doing stupid **** like taking a nap or watching a movie while it’s on.
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Old 10-13-2021, 08:50 PM   #63
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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Originally Posted by Inso0 View Post
Trolly, for instance, is extremely sour about the fact that he still lives with his mom and takes it out on others.

Life isn't over at 35. There's plenty of time to figure it out.
If his mom really loved him she would march down the basement steps, wade through the soda cans and wrappers, and slap the **** out of him.
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Old 10-13-2021, 09:12 PM   #64
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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Im just mad at his dogecoin hype.
Sure, but leading a tirade of stupid **** like promoting Tesla vehicles as super dangerous death traps won't lead to you overcoming your issues with envy.

Also, moving forward, taking financial advice from a known con man on speculative crypto currencies usually won't pan out well despite the overwhelming potential success that anyone who followed Elon's tweets in 2020 regarding Doge had been given.
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Old 10-13-2021, 10:37 PM   #65
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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If his mom really loved him she would march down the basement steps, wade through the soda cans and wrappers, and slap the **** out of him.
Sir, this is not your personal erotica site.
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Old 10-14-2021, 01:16 AM   #66
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

He called someone a pedophile just because he dared challenge his egorific self-image. That's a pretty good reason, isn't it?
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Old 10-14-2021, 07:04 AM   #67
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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Bobo I linked a few articles. I think I can very well back this up.
LOL, I guess I really should have known better than to not be more specific.

I know all you need to jump into a topic is a few anecdotal stories, but for most of us, proof that Teslas are "death traps" requires more than that. Like, some actual data. For a vehicle to qualify as a "death trap", I'd expect to see fatality rates happening in Teslas at multiple times that of other cars. Do you have such data?
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Old 10-14-2021, 08:21 AM   #68
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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He called someone a pedophile just because he dared challenge his egorific self-image. That's a pretty good reason, isn't it?
Remember when he said he was going to build a mini-sub in a week to help those kids out of a cave? Or promised he was going to do something about the water in Flint? The dude bounces from one half-baked promise to another, whether it's robotaxis, Hyperloops, Cybertrucks, etc. etc.
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Old 10-14-2021, 09:10 AM   #69
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

Musk is the greatest confidence man in history
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Old 10-14-2021, 11:59 AM   #70
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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Originally Posted by RFlushDiamonds View Post
Cars = Dangerous.

Trucks = Really, Really, Really Dangerous.

Sorry W. I'm not here because I'm mature.
And I'm not mature? Just say that its another crap thread if you think so. Maybe it is. I'm not so confident anymore.
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Old 10-14-2021, 12:00 PM   #71
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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LOL, I guess I really should have known better than to not be more specific.

I know all you need to jump into a topic is a few anecdotal stories, but for most of us, proof that Teslas are "death traps" requires more than that. Like, some actual data. For a vehicle to qualify as a "death trap", I'd expect to see fatality rates happening in Teslas at multiple times that of other cars. Do you have such data?
The rates are only higher for the autopilot imo. But you're right I don't have any numbers for this. It's just a hunch. I mean what other cars have autopilots? None if im not mistaking.
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Old 10-14-2021, 12:04 PM   #72
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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Sure, but leading a tirade of stupid **** like promoting Tesla vehicles as super dangerous death traps won't lead to you overcoming your issues with envy.

Also, moving forward, taking financial advice from a known con man on speculative crypto currencies usually won't pan out well despite the overwhelming potential success that anyone who followed Elon's tweets in 2020 regarding Doge had been given.
Yeah, most people cought wind of it though when he was on that tv show and that's when they hopped on that train. You can call them naive call them stupid. But at that time the price was at 0.60. Now it's 0.20.
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Old 10-14-2021, 12:11 PM   #73
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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The rates are only higher for the autopilot imo. But you're right I don't have any numbers for this. It's just a hunch. I mean what other cars have autopilots? None if im not mistaking.
I'm confused by this post.

Tesla does not have an Autopilot. They have a Driver Assist technology that many other Auto makers have, and they are not a leader in Driver Assist tech.

Only a few companies so far are at the earliest stages of auto pilot per my links above with the stats. But only in very condition limited trials.


In terms of what Tesla does have, Driver Assistance, the 10 deaths seem like a tiny number as explained upthread. What you need to compare it to, to see if it a death trap, is a comparison of how many people are dying in cars WITHOUT drivers assistance on, in a similar number of vehicles.

As long as any vehicles with driver assist have lower death rates per percent vehicles on the road as compared to non driver assist vehicles, it would be irresponsible to label them death traps.

it seems to me all vehicles are death traps by the way you are labelling this now as anyone can point to many deaths in any type of vehicle.
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Old 10-14-2021, 03:20 PM   #74
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

Cuepee pls do me a favor and google how to activate tesla autopilot. You will be amazed.

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Old 10-14-2021, 05:31 PM   #75
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Re: Reasons Not To Trust Musk

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Agreed.

But the inverse is also true. Being a guy who inherited wealth and bought existing companies should not deny you the credit for stuff you DID do.

And Elon did a lot.

Agreed. I've spoken to his 'hype'.



True.

But he is largely responsible for the electric car revolution now taking place that will almost certainly replace the combustion engine at some point.


Yes. His companies Valuation relative to theirs demanded they become serious competitors. There shareholders and Boards would have fired them had they not got in the game to win it.

Had Tesla died in its infancy before getting a high valuation there is no reason to believe anyone else would have taken this gamble to implement the full integrated model of doing what the major established car makers were not going to do and harm their existing very lucrative model. At least not in any of our lifetimes.



Not accurate.
Really not accurate.



The biggest obstacle here was the mass amounts of Capital needed to get this to a momentum point. It was not the tech.

There was no incentive for the major brands to push it as the R&D cost is massive (as we currently see) and it leads to no more care sales in total, and without the gov't rebates, it made vehicles too expensive.

this was a pure Risk Capital play where the entrepreneurs who took it on were going to Zero if failed or mega valuations if successful.

Those types of play are very much Entrepreneur dependant. the entrepreneur is literally selling 'belief' and 'hype' in the hopes of getting enough money and time to then have a real attempt to deliver a product.

Like Elon or not, he was unique in being able to SELL such massive hype to so many and that is his super power. That gave him the runway to then to begin to deliver in many of those areas through acquisition and innovations and more hype.

You may counter 'but I never bought into the hype and never gave him that money', and neither did i, but enough OTHERS did that he got his money and his chance, and he is delivering incrementally enough to stay in the game.


You cannot just say 'anyone else could have done it' simply because the pieces of the tech were there.

Unless you are saying in the inevitability of infinite time and outcomes, then sure, eventually (not likely our life time) some other person could have consolidated the hype to make it happen.

Anyway, I think you guys have a very naďve business view regardless. That you really do not understand business.

It seems you think for Elon to be considered successful he must invent everything himself, and create every company (no acquisitions) himself or you can scoff at him. that everything must be his original PHD work.

I challenge you.

Tell me who in the history of business you would call a success who did not utilize aspects of existing tech, or utilize acquisitions, etc in their path to Billions where you could not say 'if they did not do it, someone else would have'?

Do you consider Henry Ford a hype job fraud? The conveyor belt was not novel or new. HIs production methods were not new just because he brought them to scale.

Anyway I look forward to your Entrepreneur answer.

Musk does not have any super powers, jeeze. Gimme a break. It's not that, "the pieces of tech were there" it's that they were all working on electric cars too. They had electric cars and hybrids and all of that ****. They did not have a cool internet following.


Ford was a notorious bigot, but he was not a fraud in my opinion.


I don't get your challenge, that's not my issue with musk. There is nothing wrong with buying **** and making money off of it. The hype around him as some kind of brilliant person with, lol, "super powers" is stupid. That's what I am commenting on. Just because he bought an electric car company with his dad's money and pretended he was the only game in town does not mean I have to eat his bullshit.
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