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Religion and science Religion and science

07-06-2020 , 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by John21
Maybe:

https://www.proginosko.com/docs/The_...tradiction.pdf

Quote:
The Lord of Non-Contradiction: An Argument for God from Logic
9. Conclusion
In summary, the argument runs as follows. The laws of logic are necessary truths about truths; they are necessarily true propositions. Propositions are real entities, but cannot be physical entities; they are essentially thoughts. So the laws of logic are necessarily true thoughts. Since they are true in every possible world, they must exist in every possible world. But if there are necessarily existent thoughts, there must be a necessarily existent mind; and if there is a necessarily existent mind, there must be a necessarily existent person. A necessarily existent person must be spiritual in nature, because no physical entity exists necessarily. Thus, if there are laws of logic, there must also be a necessarily existent, personal, spiritual being. The laws of logic imply the existence of God. p
This reminds me of a passage from one of my favorite religious authors, wherein he ponders an obscure line from Parmenides but in an attempt to reach a very different conclusion. The comparison between the two styles of theology (roughly cataphatic and apophatic) has always interested me.

It's long, but since I think lagtight has indicated to me that he isn't able to get to his argument right now, I'm going to excerpt it just because I like it:

1. The Principle of Reasonableness

Paradoxical as it may first sound, the way of thinking that has led to theism and helps characterize it is the Principle of Reasonableness. Something is reasonable when it is amenable to reason without having to be intrinsically rational. The God of theism makes reasonable the existence of the world and all its enigmas by throwing upon him all unresolved problems.... The theistic God does not shun rational proof of his existence. Fides quaerens intellectum (faith looking for understanding) and intellectus fidei (understanding of the faith one professes) are technical expressions of Christian theology. The famous Hebrew psalm: "Said the fool in his heart, there is no God" is another classical expression of the same.

The world of theism is, first of all, a world in which all the many principles of life are felt to be in need of a unified coordination. There is a Supreme Instance and a hierarchy among all beings. It may be that the Entity who sits on the top is idle or has left the throne empty, or perhaps there are many thrones, or we know nothing about the entire issue, since it may be all an illusion. At any rate, the pattern is the same in all these cases: the ultimate thinking. There is one single transcendent Principle that gives or should give cohesion to the entire Reality.... All in all, the theistic mythos is a genial attempt at rationalizing Reality--at finding it at least reasonable....

When metaphysical thinking sets in, God becomes the Supreme Being, the highest Entity, the Ultimate Person--at at the same time, problematic. When moral thinking comes to the fore, this Supreme Being becomes good, the Good Lord responsible for the kingdom. When anthropomorphic thinking takes the upper hand, the Deity acquires personal character, which gives rise to a personalized and personalistic cult. Ritual, prayer, worship, entreaty, all have a personal aspect.

The world of theism demands a universe in which there is a Supreme Ruler and lawgiver, whether this is called Nature, Reason, the Market, or even Democracy.... There may be no "God," but a "unified field theory" or an ultimate Law is still assumed to operate in the universe. Most of the problems discussed in terms of "religion and science" and "reason and belief" since the nineteenth century have been efforts to reconcile theism with modern science....

Perhaps we could use a single word to describe the essence of theism: proto-archeia. One Principle, of whatever nature, even if unknown, unknowable, or pluriform stands at the top.

***

2. The Axiom of Non-Contradiction

One distinctive feature is the practically absolute primacy of the principle of non-contradiction--which Thomas Aquinas calls sacrosanctum, which even the supreme Deity has to respect. Not even God can do anything that breaks this principle. This principle of thinking reigns supreme, and it is even considered to be the "condition for the possibility" of thinking. Having said "possibility," we have already indicated the vicious circle of the principle which grounds itself by saying that it is not possible to contradict this principle without applying, viz., presupposing, it.

This argument is feeble on two accounts. First, the proof is a vicious circle, it is a tautology. It is a postulate of the mind postulated by the same mind. Possibility means non-contradiction. Something is intrinsically possible when it is not self-contradictory. To affirm that it is not "possible" to contradict the principle without applying it means that it is not "non-contradictory" to contradict the principle--that is, it is contradictory to contradict it--which is a tautology that makes sense only by virtue of the principle of identity.

Second, there is no need for a holistic consciousness to contradict the principle and function properly. Thinking is more than calculating reason. Such a calculating reason certainly needs the principle, but we can proceed non-dialectically with our thinking without contradicting the principle.... Properly speaking, it is an axiom.

Here is where the strength and the limitation of the principle appear. The principle does not simply affirm that what is contra-dictory cannot be said (a contra-diction), but goes further to deduce that it cannot be thought--and even cannot be. In other words, we convert a logical axiom into a principium cognitionis (a principle of knowing).

What cannot be said, of course, means what cannot be meaningfully said--which is fair enough. Our principle is a logical axiom which postulates itself.... We need such an axiom for any diction. The first trait of the principle leads quite logically to the conclusion that not all can be said--and therefore that not all is said. There is a realm of silence: apophatism.

The primacy of the principle extends itself not only to "diction," but also to thinking. It affirms that something contradictory cannot be thought because thinking is non-contradictory thinking and contradictory thinking is not thinking--which may be valid only insofar as thinking is a logical operation. The second trait concludes that not all can be logically thought--and even that not all is thought. There is the realm of mysticism: the ungraspable.

But there is still a third trait of the same axiom. It upgrades itself to a principium essendi, a principle of Being. The possibility of saying is extended to the possibility of thinking, and this latter possibility of thinking is identified with the possibility of Being. What cannot be thought (because it cannot be said--being contra-dictory) simply cannot be. The principle of (non-contradictory) thinking is identified with the principle of (non-contradictory) Being.

The insight of Parmenides is the basic paradigm of theism.... Being is Thinking, that is, Intelligibility--not certainly for an individual mind, but as such. Here is the ultimate basis for the famous ontological proof of God's existence. A supreme thought would lead to a Supreme Being....

It is rightly argued that without accepting the validity of such a principle we would be condemned to solipsism and human communication would not be possible. Human communication, however, is not only logical.... As I have repeatedly stressed, philosophy does not need to be limited to an algebra of concepts.

***

The strength of theism is that it offers one single center for the whole of reality. This center fulfills a triple function: (1) it vouches for the unity of the uni-verse; (2) it provides us with an ultimate point of reference, which allows us not only to be able to dialogue with none another, but to appease our thirst for intelligibility; and (3) the fact that this center is transcendent or unknown/unknowable/inexistent makes room for human freedom and is the principle of moral order.

The weakness of theism consists in the fact that it tends to believe that it is a universal paradigm, that it's only alternative is total disorder, irrationalism, and a total loss of coherence...

(from The Rhythm of Being, by Raimon Panikkar)
07-07-2020 , 12:55 AM
Theism isn't amenable to reason. It's as reasonable an idea as that pigs can fly.

People who believe this nonsense should be banned from using transistors.
07-07-2020 , 01:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
This reminds me of a passage from one of my favorite religious authors, wherein he ponders an obscure line from Parmenides but in an attempt to reach a very different conclusion. The comparison between the two styles of theology (roughly cataphatic and apophatic) has always interested me.

It's long, but since I think lagtight has indicated to me that he isn't able to get to his argument right now, I'm going to excerpt it just because I like it:
I agree with the gist of that. For instance, I think only the proverbial necessary being can satisfy the principle of sufficient reason in explaining why anything exists at all. But since there are other seemingly conceivable without contradiction alternatives, like a regress, that doesn't suffice as a proof. But we'll see what laglight comes up with. Pretty sure OrP will tie him into a pretzel but OrP has a knack for doing that leaves one much better off from a critical thinking standpoint despite the superficial wounds so it's all good.
07-07-2020 , 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d2_e4
I'm not entirely antagonistic to those ideas, but if "ancient alien" believers started trying to impose their morals onto others because it's what the ancient aliens would have wanted, or advocating for schools to teach about ancient aliens on par with physics and biology, or denying scientific findings because they preferred ancient alien explanations, I would start to have more of a problem with them. I mean, maybe they do those things, but their numbers are so small that they don't matter; I would probably feel similarly about religion if this were also the case - just some kooks, leave them be. So I think our views are pretty similar.
I welcome the teachings of the Horta as our leader, lord and savior



...and submit willingly to our Horta overlords.

(I am guess we diverge there... just a little but otherwise we agree)
07-07-2020 , 07:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
The Van Til/Bahnsen summary of the Transcendental Argument is:

"The proof that Christianity is true, is that if it isn't true, one can't prove anything at all."

I am choosing to defend the proposition, "Science is Possible only if the Bible is True", because I delivered a lecture with that title a couple or three years ago.

When I find my notes (can do that later today) and feel a bit better health-wise (almost there!) I will develop the argument further.
I got one for you .

is math an invention from human or a discovery by human ?

Obviously god ( and especially religion) is a invention by human cause no proof of it been able to verify it and even god and religion had to back pedal a lot as more and more evidence of science been proven while evolving more and more ...

So the precept of science can only be true if the bible is true doesn’t seem to hold ...
07-07-2020 , 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp
I got one for you .



is math an invention from human or a discovery by human ?



Obviously god ( and especially religion) is a invention by human cause no proof of it been able to verify it and even god and religion had to back pedal a lot as more and more evidence of science been proven while evolving more and more ...



So the precept of science can only be true if the bible is true doesn’t seem to hold ...
The foundational PRINCIPLES of mathematics were DISCOVERED.

The NOMENCLATURE was INVENTED.
07-07-2020 , 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
The foundational PRINCIPLES of mathematics were DISCOVERED.

The NOMENCLATURE was INVENTED.
Yeah so ?

Neither one for religion ...
Neither god .

Still science is more real and by default more true .
So science is true while god/ religion ain’t so yet .

Your premise not holding for now .
07-07-2020 , 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp
Yeah so ?



Neither one for religion ...

Neither god .



Still science is more real and by default more true .

So science is true while god/ religion ain’t so yet .



Your premise not holding for now .
If the principles of mathematics existed prior to any human discovering them, then those principles were invented/created by something.

The laws of logic, for example, are immaterial, universal, and invariant, so the CREATOR of the laws of logic (and mathematics) must AT LEAST also be universal, invariant and immaterial.

Based on the Law of Cause and Effect, namely, "An effect cannot be greater than it's cause."

(More to come....)
07-08-2020 , 12:16 AM
Well if your only arguments about religion/god is about :
Something always need to be created by something ,
why stop at god and give god all the power of the universe ?
And why only one god would be needed for that purpose ?

how do you claim god as created everything , even himself ?
If god created himself than why something else other than god couldn’t have been created by itself ?

I mean it’s pretty convenient to equal beliefs with proof , it’s a self professing theory but unfortunately in life and in anything else , beside the subject of god , life doesn’t work like that.
The amount of beliefs a person decide to accord to an idea doesn’t make it more real !
Even till now only beliefs about god keep god alive which isn’t a very reliable fact....

Without insult intended , it’s that kind of line of thoughts that created so much hurt in this world with religion Wars ... my god is stronger than yours and so I am more right than you which again , in reality like I said , beliefs as no baring in reality , no matter how hard you try ...that is why prayers doesn’t work .

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 07-08-2020 at 12:32 AM.
07-08-2020 , 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight

Based on the Law of Cause and Effect, namely, "An effect cannot be greater than it's cause."
Where u get that ?

If that was true , the butterfly effect for causing an hurricane wouldn’t be true for example .

Or a simple lightning bolt Starting a fire couldn’t destroy entire forest ...
Etc...

I mean the exponential factor does exist right ?
07-08-2020 , 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
If the principles of mathematics existed prior to any human discovering them, then those principles were invented/created by something...
...and that "something" was ALSO invented/created by something...

...and that "something" was ALSO ALSO invented/created by something...

... Ad infinitum..

Agree?
07-08-2020 , 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
If the principles of mathematics existed prior to any human discovering them, then those principles were invented/created by something.
This is a complete non sequitur.
07-08-2020 , 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d2_e4
This is a complete non sequitur.
Yeah, at this point you might as well say that Hamlet existed before Shakespeare discovered it.
07-08-2020 , 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuepee
...and that "something" was ALSO invented/created by something...



...and that "something" was ALSO ALSO invented/created by something...



... Ad infinitum..



Agree?
No.
07-08-2020 , 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d2_e4
This is a complete non sequitur.
No it isn't.

As an aside, what's the difference between a "complete" and an "incomplete" non-sequitur?
07-08-2020 , 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
No it isn't.

As an aside, what's the difference between a "complete" and an "incomplete" non-sequitur?
The strength of my feelings on the matter.
07-08-2020 , 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d2_e4
The strength of my feelings on the matter.
Haha! I like that one!
07-08-2020 , 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
No.
Ok, so what are you saying below if you are now admitting that these things do NOT "have to be invented/created by something"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
If the principles of mathematics existed prior to any human discovering them, then those principles were invented/created by something...
07-08-2020 , 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuepee
Ok, so what are you saying below if you are now admitting that these things do NOT "have to be invented/created by something"?
Laws of Logic (for example) were INVENTED/CREATED by "something/someone" prior to the existence of humans.

At some point, humans DISCOVERED the Laws of Logic that were INVENTED/CREATED by a non-human.
07-08-2020 , 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
Laws of Logic (for example) were INVENTED/CREATED by "something/someone" prior to the existence of humans.
What is your evidence or reasoning for this claim?
07-08-2020 , 08:48 PM
Humans didn't INVENT the Grand Canyon, or light, or gravity, etc.

All those things were DISCOVERED by humans.

The Model-T and the typewriter were INVENTED/CREATED by humans, not DISCOVERED by humans.
07-08-2020 , 08:50 PM
That wasn't the question. The question is what is your reasoning for the claim that laws of logic were invented/created by something/someone? Why can't they just have always existed, or come into existence at the same time as the universe?

You are asserting that someone or something created the laws of logic, I am asking you to provide evidence or reasoning for your claim.
07-08-2020 , 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d2_e4
What is your evidence or reasoning for this claim?
Because the Laws of Logic are universal, invariant and immaterial.

The creator of the Laws of Logic must have (minimally) those three characteristics.
07-08-2020 , 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d2_e4
That wasn't the question. The question is what is your reasoning for the claim that laws of logic were invented/created by something/someone? Why can't they just have always existed, or come into existence at the same time as the universe?

You are asserting that someone or something created the laws of logic, I am asking you to provide evidence or reasoning for your claim.
The Laws of Logic COULD have always existed.
07-08-2020 , 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
Because the Laws of Logic are universal, invariant and immaterial.

The creator of the Laws of Logic must have (minimally) those three characteristics.
I am asking you for evidence that the laws of logic have a creator. Presupposing that they have a creator, then attributing qualities to that creator is not answering my question.

      
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