Fair enough. Does seem a realistic outcome in your society, so nice to see you embrace it, although I suspect it would be more people screaming that aint noone else telling me how to mow my lawn and such. Same end result.

All the best.

They sure are, thats why you want a free market with a lot of options so you have to deal with those people as little as possible.




Why wouldn't you want to participate in the market? You really want to spend all day growing food and making clothes? Wouldn't you rather focus on what you're productive at and other people focus on what they're are productive at, then trade? Libertarians aren't forcing anything on you, you can live the way you want. If you can produce everything you need on your own go for it, no one would bother you.
Gold isn't. From what I can tell the reason inflation isn't hitting us that hard yet is because we export it


Right and who does the killing? Can a business wage war and con a bunch of young kids to join without the power the State has?

The State is ruining healthcare, the more involved they are the worse it will get imo.



How did they create wealth?

Do you know of a completely free market monopoly that wasn't sponsored by the State that turned around and screwed its customers? how are private sector monopolies bad but ones enforced by the State using violence not?

The post office sucks.

CEO's can try to control people all they want, I'm not worried about it unless they have the power of the State or the assistance of them.

Yes corporations control and collude with the State, so I guess if there wasn't a State to grant these favors they would just have to figure out how to make their customers happy instead of rigging laws and regulations.

Where do you think gold derives its worth? Hint: you can't eat it, you can't use it to keep warm, and you can't **** it.

I don't know. I'd have to see what the market looks like.



Sure. They can hire a private army if they like. At least they could if there wasn't any government to stop them. Read some labor history and see what a business will do to protect it's investors.


The same way any other country does. Do you think there were no goods or services in the old USSR ?

American Tobacco ?

Yeah, sure they do. lol

Why would you want to eat, **** or burn money? I hope you’re not in finance.

Oh crap you’re right. I forgot that private citizens and businesses can’t possibly maintain their own property. Man the haymakers just keep coming, I’m surprised I’m still standing.




I will get to all the posts in a few but slow down, I want to see if we can find some common ground and go in a different direction.

Well pick that binary State-ist scripture back up and continue to spread the good word. Take care.

I think you the whole point.

Many don't maintain their properties, and they will make it clear that that is their choice. What do you do then?

All the best.

I need an example, I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean

The public infrastructure maintained by the State?

They aren't calling for more war spending they're attempting to nitpick something like private roads and acting like they just debunked and invalidated the principles of Libertarianism.

Yeah I just want more competition in these areas, better quality, cheaper prices.

Yeah I just think there are other ways to prove you own land than a centralized gov't I'm forced to fund.

Why cut the part out that exposed the flaw in your logic?

I never said there weren't rules to be enforced, and you can defend yourself using violence. And you can remove people from your property. What rules are you thinking of?
We are not a great advertisement of FMC these days I agree. i'm not going to pretend I know who is happy but standard of living and economic freedom seem to go hand in hand.

I'm searching for your other posts I missed, were they moved?

Right but by central planning the economy and not letting people make choices and letting the market dictate where resources need to be allocated, it collapsed. Central planning is not an efficient way to run an economy, you just don't have the information necessary to make wise decisions.


I don't see where they screwed their customers by raising prices, its seems they were found guilty of conspiring to monopolize by implementing vertical integration (buying supply chains, cutting out middle men, making it cheaper and more reliable). Doesn't look like they got far enough where we could of seen if they tried to pass part of that savings on to the consumer or screw them.

If they were smart they would pass on the savings instead of pissing off their consumer base and inviting competition. Thus making more money. But who knows, only the State can be trusted with monopolies I guess

Usually when people can't maintain a property they sell it. And if an investor sees a property he can make money off of that is in bad shape he will make an offer to purchase it. This happens now.

I didn't think the part about not getting along with the people chosen to run the government was particularly salient. You may not want to get along with your elected representatives, but tough ****, you have to.

Fraud? There's tons of rules that can be broken and do you harm thousands of miles from your home where you're sitting on your porch with a gun. The general solution I've seen ACists advocate to protect against such lawbreakers without violating the NAP is "shunning", which seems like a total joke - sure, I'll run a bank and the only thing stopping me from running away with everyone's money is the threat of people not dealing with me anymore (they totally would deal with my money though). How do you picture things like that being enforced?

This post, but since then you've generally conceded that COVID is perhaps not the best case study to advocate for libertarianism so we can drop that angle if you like. I guess that just leaves this:

Capitalism/libertarianism fuses "the greater good" and "profit motive" into the same thing, i.e. if the market is not willed to produce it via a profit motive then it is by definition not in the greater good. You can endorse that view, I guess, but it leaves a lot of public goods in our current society that people generally like to the wayside.

OK SO LETS TRY AND FIND SOME COMMON GROUND.

Heres my question to you all:

Is the US Government evil?

I obviously would say yes, here are a few reasons in no particular order;

- They start wars based on lies that kill innocent people here and abroad
- They force us to fund these wars and sometimes even fight in them, so basically slavery
- They knowingly steal purchasing power from the USD, which is worse that outright robbing someone
- Tuskegee syphilis experiment
- They have abused their power since day one and violated their oaths
- The prison system

If you don't believe they are evil overall what are they doing to counterbalance all of this (and more) in your opinion.

oh crap I forgot, pull out my gun and confiscate it.

Really? You kind of remind me of the libertarian who years ago talked about the need to bring guns on a plane for protection. I assumed at first it was a joke, but then realized he was not kidding(after I asked about the people who were not responsible who bring guns on a plane) when he said effectively - well, they should not bring a gun on a plane if they are not responsible. I then started talking about sports, because why bother with crazy.

In a similar way, I ask what the herd of libertarians will do when a chunk of people will not maintain their property (and build their portion of the road) and will not then sell their property - because humans gonna human, and understand that I ask this not expecting any kind of rational answer, it is more for my amusement as libertarians are kind of adorable in a weird way as long as they do not have any real significance.

Forget about guns or whatever for the moment, what do you do after you nicely built your portion of the road and your hoarder libertarian neighbor wants no part of doing that work (would make him have to move his hoard of used toilet paper and newspapers and such) and shockingly he does not immediately agree to sell his property. What then? Thanks!

All the best.

All the Acers should pitch in together and buy a country. Then remove all the rules and see who the last man standing will be. Where can we start offloading the the ships of heroin? Probably a good idea to slip it in the food supply first--to build a nice customer base before they realize it Let's get this party started.

You've made no arguments and have failed to justify the State morally or logically. People tend to get confused when forced to defend a religion.

Right but if the logic of having a State is because people can't get along, why take a subset of those people and put them in power?

If I see 2 people not getting along I don't go "Hey, I know what will solve this! I just need to give one of them total control over the other, that's fair!"

Fraud is case by case because there are different levels of it, which would require different punishments. I wouldn't consider force-ably taking my property back violating NAP because someone who steals from me isn't peaceful, he is doing harm.

The funny thing about the bank example is that banks don't have your money right now. But anyway, there would be private defense firms and private courts instead of state police and state courts.
Well if people like something that means there is a demand for it, so....


Now I think this is where we fundamentally disagree. You believe certain things are better provided by the State, and that even though the free market is great for things like food, electronics, cars etc. You don't think those principles would apply to stuff like roads, courts, healthcare etc. Which I get, thats a pretty big jump to make.

So your libertarianism requires roads to exist as a prior condition? What if there are new roads or something similar to roads required?

But the whole conversation in the USA seems arse over tit. A better question is could libertarianism have been any worse? A half baked, half decent state might well be better than libertariamism but can the usa ever manage that?

Oh no bad roads and freeloaders! That would never happen with a gigantic government in charge!

Man I love how smart you think you are. Do you really want to go back and forth on the negative externalities of the State vs a Libertarian society? Did you think this through?

ok lets go, so you say: Possibility of bad roads

My turn: Lying us into war and droning innocent people

Ok your turn

Did you mean AnCap here? If so wtf are you talking about removing all the rules? Do more research.

If you meant Acer then i don't know wtf that is so ignore this

Why not start it off with a little stealing? That's what it will turn into anyway. And when that doesn't go smoothly--Boris Fat Tony and the boys will be by to have a little chat I'm sure they'll love to hear all about the wonders of the free market--no no please don't do that--that's not how it works! lol

No, roads can be built without the State imo.

Ok so you don't appear to even know what you are criticizing lol.

I don't view "because people can't get along" as the primary reason for the state's existence, that's just something that's come up in our discussion. So that's why I don't think people getting or not getting along is particularly important in justifying the state. I view the primary role of the state as, most simply, enforcing the rules and collecting taxes to fund public services.

Sounds like...
- you deposit money in my bank
- I do shady **** with it
- you say "wait you can't do that, I want my money back"
- you take it up with the private court that our contract says will arbitrate these disagreements
- 100% of that private court's business comes from this contract I have with them so if they made a lot of judgements I didn't like I would take my business away from them and move it elsewhere
- they rule "fairly" on the merits of our case

I bolded the weak link in this chain of events. How can "private courts" be run fairly with a profit motive? The libertarian answer, as it is for everything, is "but if the private courts didn't do a great job then the market would provide a better court". Great job for who? I'm a lowly consumer with significantly less money to put on the scale than the large forces I contract with, I have no power in this relationship.

USA#1 courts certainly aren't perfect or free from political influence, but like, they seem a whole lot better than this alternative world.

Also, very curious how private defense firms work. Does every home in the USA have to sign up for an individual "don't get invaded by Eastasia" package? If I don't sign up, does Eastasia get to invade my house as long as they leave all my neighbors who did buy the package undisturbed?

Yeah, pretty much. "Cars" are another great example where government regulation has been massively beneficial, see pollution before and after the EPA. Saying "stop putting this **** into our atmosphere or we use violence against you" has been a total win for the world.