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Re: framing the abortion debate Re: framing the abortion debate

09-01-2021 , 07:16 PM
[QUOTE=jjjou812;57295430]
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
While I think this absolute position is incorrect, I have no problem with pedestrians adopting it as a justification for their mission statement.
I certainly don't care what a group of pedestrians have to say.
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-01-2021 , 08:02 PM
Rococo, good catch but fix your post because it was my error not lagtight.
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-01-2021 , 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tame_deuces
An opinion piece doesn't really need an abstract like that.

"American College of Pediatricians" is an advocacy group, as a a surprise to no-one, advocates religious and conservative takes on issues like abortion
This actually is surprising fwiw. There is certainly no reason to assume it based on it the name alone and every reason to assume that they're just a standard professional group-- but I see that they are a distinct group from the American Academy of Pediatricians.
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-01-2021 , 08:57 PM
Also interesting is that American Acedemy of Pediatricians has 67,000 members and The American College of Pediatricians has only 500 members (only half of which are pedestrians).
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-01-2021 , 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuepee

I know why most organized religion people are against abortion as Churches want loyal stable growing membership and thus wanted church goers to have the biggest families possible. Every sperm was sacred and every egg should be birthed. Membership baby.
I agree with this. But I think that there more diabolical reasons behind the whole right to life movement. I think it's also a way to keep minorities and poor people in general poor. They prevent people from getting an abortion but provide absolutely no assistance to those people. Young mothers are forced to stay home and care for the child, all the meanwhile they can't go out and get a job or to school because they're home taking care of a baby.
And poverty is also a form of segregation. Poor people are forced to live in poor neighborhoods.
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-01-2021 , 11:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepeeme2008
I agree with this. But I think that there more diabolical reasons behind the whole right to life movement. I think it's also a way to keep minorities and poor people in general poor. They prevent people from getting an abortion but provide absolutely no assistance to those people. Young mothers are forced to stay home and care for the child, all the meanwhile they can't go out and get a job or to school because they're home taking care of a baby.
And poverty is also a form of segregation. Poor people are forced to live in poor neighborhoods.
This doesn’t make sense when those same churches are providing food, assistance with housing and job placement in their local communities
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-01-2021 , 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used2Play
This doesn’t make sense when those same churches are providing food, assistance with housing and job placement in their local communities
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2roWLzrqOjQ

I understand your scepticism. It's totally natural. And I don't accuse conservatives solely for these issues. What is explained in this video was a widespread general policy across the political spectrum. Watch it until the end to get the whole picture. It's not that long.
Knowledge is power they say but maybe sometimes it's easier to know less. But once you learn some things, and there's so much we don't know, you can't be the same.
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 01:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc
This actually is surprising fwiw. There is certainly no reason to assume it based on it the name alone and every reason to assume that they're just a standard professional group-- but I see that they are a distinct group from the American Academy of Pediatricians.
If we're lucky maybe we'll have some of our pragerU grads pop in for some analysis.
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 05:57 AM
It's funny to see Republicans complain about Taliban taking over Afghanistan when they are going full Taliban themselves in Texas.
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 07:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp
How can anybody talk with someone like that ?
Write more slowly I suppose o0 ?

I won’t even lose my time to find obvious other worthy news sites when this guy seem to just be a troll ….

Funny how King Spew understood right away and you still can’t seem to figure it out. Says a lot about you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 07:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepeeme2008
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2roWLzrqOjQ

I understand your scepticism. It's totally natural. And I don't accuse conservatives solely for these issues. What is explained in this video was a widespread general policy across the political spectrum. Watch it until the end to get the whole picture. It's not that long.
Knowledge is power they say but maybe sometimes it's easier to know less. But once you learn some things, and there's so much we don't know, you can't be the same.
That video is about racist fha policy from the 50s/60s. Your contention is modern day churches are trying to keep POC poor but there are churches giving POC asylum and money; for example:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dis...emplate=ampart

My view on Christianity (from an atheist perspective) is there are those who take bible seriously and try and follow parts of it that mean most to them and those who identify as Christian but in practice don’t do anything serious to help others. It’s not hard to take the true believers at face value when they say they believe the unborn have souls. I don’t have to agree with them to understand that perspective.
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc
This actually is surprising fwiw. There is certainly no reason to assume it based on it the name alone and every reason to assume that they're just a standard professional group-- but I see that they are a distinct group from the American Academy of Pediatricians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjou812
Also interesting is that American Acedemy of Pediatricians has 67,000 members and The American College of Pediatricians has only 500 members (only half of which are pedestrians).

I was probably a bit flippant in commenting how obvious it can be.

This is sadly a common tactic in the US, as I have found when looking for statistics and articles; lobbying groups or advocacy groups often adopt neutral sounding names, or names that are easy to confuse with existing and recognized organizations. The publications can then vary in quality from outright fabrication to using a lot of half-truths.

It is not limited to one side of the political spectrum. It is not unique to the US, but I will say that it is particularly prevalent there. I have found that in recent years it has actually become harder and harder to find neutral data or to verify that articles or data is good.

My tip is generally to check out the general website on any article, and do some basic research on the group that publishes it. That doesn't automatically imply that people should disagree with the piece, but I'd say as a general rule of thumb that groups that try to misrepresent what they are should be taken with a grain of salt.
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp
But now because science has the narrative you want , science as full legitimacy….

And no one sees a problem with this ?
Science is kinda like : you accept it or you don’t .
It isn’t a poll …..

The scientific method is not a political program !
How do ‘birthing people’ and ‘men with uteruses’ feel about this?
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tame_deuces
I have found that in recent years it has actually become harder and harder to find neutral data or to verify that articles or data is good.
This is about as true as the "news" in America gets. It's not really news: it's political propaganda.
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 11:03 AM
The party of science:

Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 01:33 PM
What is that outfit? Their mainpage is asking for donations immediately

Looks like some refuge for parents of kids who didn't make the cut for gate--but were still Certain their little squirts were special--so it's off to the strip mall school
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 04:20 PM
[QUOTE=jjjou812;57295430]
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
https://acpeds.org/assets/imported/3...ife-Begins.pdf

Lag tight:

The article you attached states:

As physicians dedicated both to scientific truth and to the Hippocratic tradition, the College values all human lives equally from the moment of conception (fertilization) until natural death. Consistent with its mission to “enable all children to reach their optimal physical and emotional health and well-being,” the College, therefore, opposes active measures that would prematurely end the life of any child at any stage of development from conception to natural death.

While I think this absolute position is incorrect, I have no problem with pedestrians adopting it as a justification for their mission statement. My question to you is: if you believe this explanation is correct, which I assume you do given your cite to it, how do you justify any exceptions to protecting human life from the point of conception forward for rape, incest or health of the mother?
My current position is that abortion is wrong at least 99.9999% of the time.
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by #Thinman
**** texas
Yay Texas!!!
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp
You know lagtight , it is a bit funny that to try to convince us for,
a cell to be considered a human in its entire being ,
you use science .
While your camp Republican/libertarian ( I presume ?) despise and do not believe in science on a majority of subject .
But now because science has the narrative you want , science as full legitimacy….

And no one sees a problem with this ?
Science is kinda like : you accept it or you don’t .
It isn’t a poll …..

The scientific method is not a political program !
I Science!
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 04:36 PM
As expected lagtight is unable to answer a direct question.
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjjou812
As expected lagtight is unable to answer a direct question.
I won't answer questions that commit the Complex Question Fallacy. DUCY?
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
Yay Texas!!!
Laggy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuepee
Lagtight as a Bible literalist what informs your view on abortion as the bible has no direct reference to it, let alone it being bad or wrong to do.

I know why most organized religion people are against abortion as Churches want loyal stable growing membership and thus wanted church goers to have the biggest families possible. Every sperm was sacred and every egg should be birthed. Membership baby. But it was nothing more than that, that they then rationalized around.

But I think you do not follow organized religions but do the bible???

Quote:
1. The Bible forbids abortion. - FALSE!

It shouldn’t matter what the Bible says about abortion. The United States is not a theocracy. Still, given the certitude of abortion opponents that abortion violates God’s Word, it might come as a surprise that neither the Old Testament nor the New mentions abortion—not one word.

It’s not that the Old Testament is reticent about women’s bodies, either. Menstruation gets a lot of attention. So do child- birth, infertility, sexual desire, prostitution (death penalty), infidelity (more death penalty), and rape (if the woman is within earshot of others and doesn’t cry out . . . death penalty). How can it be that the authors (or Author) set down what should happen to a woman who seeks to help her husband in a fight by grabbing the other man’s testicles (her hand should be cut off) but did not feel abortion deserved so much as a word? Given the penalties for nonmarital sex and being a rape victim, it’s hard to believe that women never needed desperately to end a pregnancy, and that there was no folk knowledge of how to do so, as there was in other ancient cultures. Midwives would have known how to induce a miscarriage.

A passage often cited by abortion opponents is Exodus 21:22–23:

If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life . . .

Contemporary abortion opponents interpret this passage as distinguishing between causing a premature birth (fine) versus causing a miscarriage (death penalty), which is indeed what most modern translations suggest. Unfortunately for abortion opponents, at least one thousand years of rabbinical scholarship say the fine is for causing a miscarriage and the death penalty is for causing the death of the pregnant woman. If anti-abortion exegetes are only now finding in this rather obscure passage evidence for an absolute biblical ban on abortion, you have to wonder why no one read it that way before. The Talmud permits abortion under certain circumstances, in fact requires it if the woman’s life is at stake.

The New Testament was a second chance for God to make himself clear about abortion. Jesus had some strong views of marriage and sex—he considered the Jewish divorce laws too lenient, disapproved of stoning adulteresses, and did not shrink from healing a woman who had “an issue” (vaginal bleeding of some sort) that had lasted twelve years and would have made her an outcast among Jews. But he said nothing about abortion. Neither did Saint Paul, or the other New Testament authors, or any of the later authors whose words were interpolated into the original texts.
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wet work
If we're lucky maybe we'll have some of our pragerU grads pop in for some analysis.
+1
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuepee
Laggy?
From Gotquestions.org:

https://www.gotquestions.org/abortion-Bible.html


The Bible never specifically addresses the issue of abortion. However, there are numerous teachings in Scripture that make it abundantly clear what God’s view of abortion is. Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that God knows us before He forms us in the womb. Psalm 139:13-16 speaks of God’s active role in our creation and formation in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes the same penalty—death—for someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as for someone who commits murder. This clearly indicates that God considers a baby in the womb to be just as much of a human being as a full-grown adult. For the Christian, abortion is not a matter of a woman’s right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6).

Last edited by lagtight; 09-02-2021 at 04:51 PM. Reason: added link
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote
09-02-2021 , 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight
I won't answer questions that commit the Complex Question Fallacy. DUCY?
Nothing wrong taking the 5th …..
Re: framing the abortion debate Quote

      
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