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Old 05-28-2020, 03:32 PM   #801
Luckbox Inc
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Ps: if the united stated ainít a democracy than what is it ?
Enlighten me .
It's an oligarchy. Some argue plutocracy but that is incorrect. this thread for that discussion.
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:18 PM   #802
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Exactly !
And how many week/month in the pregnancy that is ?
Is it called an embryo or a baby at that point ?
Thx .....
My point was, since most names are gender-specific, it doesn't make sense to choose a name BEFORE the parents know the gender of the baby.

Although, some couples choose a name immediately when they learn of the pregnancy (or even before).

I thought even you could figure that out. My bad.
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Old 05-29-2020, 02:17 AM   #803
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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My point was, since most names are gender-specific, it doesn't make sense to choose a name BEFORE the parents know the gender of the baby.

Although, some couples choose a name immediately when they learn of the pregnancy (or even before).

I thought even you could figure that out. My bad.
Actually I thought it was easy to figure out that itís hard to be a human without genitals....
That was my point to show you that your thoughts that a 1 week pregnant woman not allowed to abort because she had a human inside her is nonsense .

I thought even you could figure that out. My bad
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Old 05-29-2020, 02:19 AM   #804
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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It's an oligarchy. Some argue plutocracy but that is incorrect. this thread for that discussion.
Fundamentally itís still a democracy .
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:39 AM   #805
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Fundamentally it’s still a democracy .

It's a democracy by any reasonable definition.
It's a democratic republic and not a pure democracy as we elect representatives and have our three separate but equal branches but you can't run a country with a pure democracy anyway so it's sort of a moot point.

Many conservatives want to oppress certain groups (immigrants, women, non Christians etc...) and will argue that the 'republic' adjective overrides the 'democratic' one in the description of the government. And there is some history of that in the south where they prefer a caste system. But the modern part of the country that isn't stuck in the 1800's understand we're a democracy.

Last edited by RFlushDiamonds; 05-29-2020 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:56 AM   #806
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Re: framing the abortion debate

We have threads for this but you are both wrong. The reason why it's argued that it isn't a democracy is because fundamentally it isn't. This has been tested and shown.
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Old 05-29-2020, 09:03 AM   #807
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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My point was, since most names are gender-specific, it doesn't make sense to choose a name BEFORE the parents know the gender of the baby.

Although, some couples choose a name immediately when they learn of the pregnancy (or even before).

I thought even you could figure that out. My bad.
Some even name their car.
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Old 05-29-2020, 09:08 AM   #808
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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We have threads for this but you are both wrong. The reason why it's argued that it isn't a democracy is because fundamentally it isn't. This has been tested and shown.

I would agree with you if you said we're not a very good democracy.
In fact I think we are, in practice' an oligarchy.

But we're talking more theory here. At least I was.
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Old 05-29-2020, 09:08 AM   #809
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Some even name their car.
BB King names his guitar.
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Old 05-29-2020, 01:05 PM   #810
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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I would agree with you if you said we're not a very good democracy.
In fact I think we are, in practice' an oligarchy.

But we're talking more theory here. At least I was.
+1
The point I was making with lagtag is that the US is a more of a democracy than a totalitarian political regime .
And giving laws to control woman body in a democracy is insane .
Well like RFD said , some still lives with 1800’s notion and at that time he US still has slavery and needed a war to end it ......

So yes RFD makes great arguments .
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Old 05-29-2020, 01:06 PM   #811
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Re: framing the abortion debate

"Fundamentally in theory" is sort of an oxymoron imo but I'm fine agreeing to disagree on that point.
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Old 05-29-2020, 01:20 PM   #812
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
Actually I thought it was easy to figure out that itís hard to be a human without genitals....
Having genitals is not a necessary condition for being human.


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That was my point to show you that your thoughts that a 1 week pregnant woman not allowed to abort because she had a human inside her is nonsense .

I thought even you could figure that out. My bad
A human life exists at conception.

The debate is about whether or not the relatively primitive human life has a right to exist.
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Old 05-29-2020, 01:29 PM   #813
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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It's a democracy by any reasonable definition.
It's a democratic republic and not a pure democracy as we elect representatives and have our three separate but equal branches but you can't run a country with a pure democracy anyway so it's sort of a moot point.

Many conservatives want to oppress certain groups (immigrants, women, non Christians etc...) and will argue that the 'republic' adjective overrides the 'democratic' one in the description of the government. And there is some history of that in the south where they prefer a caste system. But the modern part of the country that isn't stuck in the 1800's understand we're a democracy.
As a conservative, I would like to state that I categorically object to the oppression of anyone who isn't doing evil things to other humans. Immigrants, women and non-Christians are not evil.

Killing humans is evil, so I will attempt to oppress people who are doing that.

Last edited by lagtight; 05-29-2020 at 01:31 PM. Reason: reworded something
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Old 05-29-2020, 01:41 PM   #814
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
+1
The point I was making with lagtag is that the US is a more of a democracy than a totalitarian political regime .
And giving laws to control woman body in a democracy is insane .
Well like RFD said , some still lives with 1800ís notion and at that time he US still has slavery and needed a war to end it ......

So yes RFD makes great arguments .
BTW, my handle is Lagtight, not Lagtag. But I do like Lagtag a lot more, so keep using it when referring to me, please.

I agree with you that the US is more democracy than totalitarian.

I'm in favor of "controlling" anyone's body if doing that will prevent another human from being killed.
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Old 05-29-2020, 02:38 PM   #815
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Re: framing the abortion debate

lagtight are you aware that most forms of female contraception (pill, coil etc) work, at least in part, by making it less likely for a fertilised egg to successfully implant in the womb? If so what are your views on it relative to the whole "life begins at conception" viewpoint?

(This isn't meant as a gotcha, I'm genuinely curious.)
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Old 05-29-2020, 04:54 PM   #816
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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"Fundamentally in theory" is sort of an oxymoron imo but I'm fine agreeing to disagree on that point.
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Having genitals is not a necessary condition for being human.

Comon man ....
I said specifically genitals because you bring parents that can’t name their child since they don’t know it’s a boy or a girl because it’s an embryo !

But OBVIOUSLY..... the reason As well that the “human” haven’t get genitals yet , the “embryo” doesn’t have a brain either , nervous system , etc ....
Still a human ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight View Post

A human life exists at conception.

The debate is about whether or not the relatively primitive human life has a right to exist.
Finally...yes like I told you previously.
should lower life form have precedence over higher life form ....
What is your take on this ?

Personally I just can’t give priority to a cell over a human being ....
I live in the real world and act upon what is real ,
not on potential ( life after death and going to heaven if I’m a good boy ?)

Ps: this discussion would had more potential if you actually talked about baby , but I mean you just equates cells with a human being has being identical value .
It just ain’t ....
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Old 05-29-2020, 05:03 PM   #817
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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As a conservative, I would like to state that I categorically object to the oppression of anyone who isn't doing evil things to other humans. Immigrants, women and non-Christians are not evil.

Killing humans is evil, so I will attempt to oppress people who are doing that.
Well you brought up the 'not a democracy' meme. It's used by conservatives for a reason and that reason isn't to protect people from being oppressed and/or exploited by those more powerful. Just sayin'.

I thought you were a conservative Christian so you're either not being totally honest with us here or not remembering the basic teachings of your faith regarding who's evil.

Or I just misread your faith system.
If so sorry. No offense.

As far as killing humans being evil, do conservatives really think that ?
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Old 05-29-2020, 07:44 PM   #818
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Re: framing the abortion debate

Everyone knows conservatives only care about people in the womb and liberals only care about them outside the womb.
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Old 05-29-2020, 09:31 PM   #819
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Everyone knows conservatives only care about people in the womb and liberals only care about them outside the womb.
Nah .
3 month inside the wombs liberals cares.
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Old 05-29-2020, 10:37 PM   #820
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by RFlushDiamonds View Post
Well you brought up the 'not a democracy' meme. It's used by conservatives for a reason and that reason isn't to protect people from being oppressed and/or exploited by those more powerful. Just sayin'.



I thought you were a conservative Christian so you're either not being totally honest with us here or not remembering the basic teachings of your faith regarding who's evil.



Or I just misread your faith system.

If so sorry. No offense.



As far as killing humans being evil, do conservatives really think that ?
When I said we're not a democracy, that is literally true. We're a democratic republic, so not a pure democracy.

Essentially, we are a democracy now that many states have ballot initiatives, e.g.
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Old 05-29-2020, 11:14 PM   #821
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Willd View Post
lagtight are you aware that most forms of female contraception (pill, coil etc) work, at least in part, by making it less likely for a fertilised egg to successfully implant in the womb? If so what are your views on it relative to the whole "life begins at conception" viewpoint?

(This isn't meant as a gotcha, I'm genuinely curious.)
"Fertilization" and "conception" can be used interchangeably, according to some thesauruses.

To avoid ambiguity, I will use the term "fertilization".

I have no problem with killing ", pre-fertilization" life in the womb, since it's not yet human by any SCIENTIFIC definition that I am aware of.
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Old 05-30-2020, 04:54 AM   #822
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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"Fertilization" and "conception" can be used interchangeably, according to some thesauruses.

To avoid ambiguity, I will use the term "fertilization".

I have no problem with killing ", pre-fertilization" life in the womb, since it's not yet human by any SCIENTIFIC definition that I am aware of.
My point was that it specifically tries to prevent fertilised eggs from implanting in the womb. That was why I am curious because if you consider conception, and therefore life, to be at the time the sperm and egg then most female contraception in part specifically acts to prevent the fertilised egg from developing.
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Old 05-30-2020, 06:52 AM   #823
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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What do you mean by Roe being overturned? No balancing test? Changing the medical line? Finding no right to privacy in the Constitution via strict constructionism?

No, because the voter approved referendum law still may be unconstitutional and unreasonably infringe on a protected right. Same reason why a voter referendum to limit guns wonít pass the same test.
Lag tight, what about these questions?
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:05 AM   #824
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Lag tight, what about these questions?
If Roe was overturned, then my understanding is that each state could construct their own anti-abortion laws.

Of course, any of those new laws could be found Unconstitutional for any number of reasons.
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Old 05-30-2020, 08:31 PM   #825
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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When I said we're not a democracy, that is literally true. We're a democratic republic, so not a pure democracy.

Essentially, we are a democracy now that many states have ballot initiatives, e.g.
A republic is a state not led by a monarch. That's why we have a president.

We're literally a representative democracy. Not a direct democracy of course.
But the idea was to have voters elect representatives and have those representatives bound by a constitution.

It's absolutely a type of democracy.
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