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Old 05-24-2020, 08:35 PM   #776
RFlushDiamonds
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces View Post
That's a bit simplified. If you look at the anthropological evidence, we're more hardwired to ensure our survival. Rearing children is a part of that.

Killing children was a common habit in neolithic times for example. If times were hard, children were killed to save food and resources. You have estimates that state that perhaps between 20% and 50% of children were killed for this purpose. We also have evidence that similar practices were carried out by hunter-gatherer tribes.

And if you assume a harsh fight for resources, it makes sense. Children were the ones that were replaceable when "either some die or we all die" dilemmas came about.

This isn't to say that we aren't currently living in cultures where the value of children is set incredibly high, but that doesn't mean we're hardwired for this. Instead this very much seems like learned complex behavior and culture. Of course, we also have far fewer children - so we actually get to know them a bit.
I'll have to look into that.

As far as I can tell human females have as much maternal instinct as other animals. I know male lions will kill cubs to put the female back into heat but they do that at their own peril. (random example)

But individual survival would trump survival of another even in the same tribe so, it's logical that children might be killed in extreme circumstances. But as a norm ? It seems to run counter to nature.
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Old 05-24-2020, 11:05 PM   #777
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
If Roe versus Wade got overturned, then each state could presumably determine their own abortion laws.

If a state passes a voter-approved referendum that bans all abortions, is that fine with the pro-democracy people in this Forum?
What do you mean by Roe being overturned? No balancing test? Changing the medical line? Finding no right to privacy in the Constitution via strict constructionism?

No, because the voter approved referendum law still may be unconstitutional and unreasonably infringe on a protected right. Same reason why a voter referendum to limit guns won’t pass the same test.
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Old 05-24-2020, 11:09 PM   #778
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Re: framing the abortion debate

Lag, explain the law you would support in banning all abortions with your three exceptions.
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Old 05-25-2020, 01:10 AM   #779
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
Lag, explain the law you would support in banning all abortions with your three exceptions.
I will discuss that excellent point AFTER we've sufficiently discussed the "non-exception" cases.

One step at a time.
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Old 05-25-2020, 01:14 AM   #780
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
Nice try about what ?
Good for you if you believe in them .




You serious ?
Totalitarianism isnít left ot right ....
Benito Mussolini wasnít a leftish !

Reread the definition :
Ē ... and exercises an extremely high degree of control over public and private lifeĒ.

Justifying a state to proclaim a law to apply your value of ďbeliefĒ
{example : a cell ( embryo) is a human}
and permit the state to control a person physic is a totalitarian trait .
certainly not a freedom trait !

Ps: but you already so mixed up scientifically about what is a human , itís kinda of normal I guess you are as well about some political definition as well .

Why donít you tell us why you think a cell is the same as human ?
Explain to us .

Example : is an egg a chicken ?
Does it have the same attribut ?
Does it have the same expenses of energy?
Does both have the same reaction vs danger ?
Etc ....

When you eat 2 eggs at breakfast , do you say you eat 2 chickens ?
Do You eat the same amount of calories when you eat 2 eggs instead of 2 chicken ?
Does 1 egg and 1 chicken cost the same price ?

Thatís what basically you say when you say an embryo (without a brain, genital, you canít even say if itís male or female so you canít even attribut a name , etc ) is the same as a human ...

You can used any vocabulary parables you like but you donít hold the right to impose your beliefs on others in a democracy ....

Unless you scientifically proved us you are right , arbitrary beliefs isnít good enough to submit to your will , fortunately .

There is a reason we call today ,
the period of arbitrary beliefs That Ruled most civilisations between 500 to around 14-1500 ad , the dark ages .
That's a lot to cover!

I will tackle those points early this week.

I have to re-locate again soon (for the fourth time since late February), so I will address each point soon.

Stay well!
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Old 05-25-2020, 03:06 AM   #781
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Re: framing the abortion debate

It just staggering that you lagtag didn’t really bother about how bad it is to permit a country, states or city to have laws that take control of its private citizens body , in this case woman under the pretense of saving life , which is arbitrary !
I just wonder if you hear yourself and realize what you adhere to ...

What will you do if someday a woman president would vote some law under other pretense to take control of your body lagtag ?
You think it only work 1 way , which is only your way ?
Good luck with that !

But it’s true , some do advocate totalitarian states to be a good place to live in I supposed .
Incredible these kinds of thoughts could be acceptable in the United-States , the ęland of the freeĽ ?
Free ?
Yeah right !!

Ps: of course your against assisted dying laws , even for terminal patient under severe pain and under drugs right ?
Well hey it is easy for you since you are not the one suffering for , again, an ideology , religion or w.e that is personal to you !

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 05-25-2020 at 03:21 AM.
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Old 05-27-2020, 06:44 PM   #782
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Re: framing the abortion debate

Time for some SCIENCE!

The following quote is from a book titled, BEFORE WE ARE BORN: ESSENTIALS OF EMBRYOLOGY AND BIRTH DEFECTS (8th edition),
by Drs. Keith L. Moore, T.V.N. Persaud, and Mark G. Torchia.

From the section, "Introduction to Human Embryology":

"Human development begins when an oocyte (ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm (spermatozoon) from a male. Development involves many changes that transform a single cell, the zygote (fertilized ovum) into a multicellular human being. Embryology is concerned with the origin and development of a human being from a zygote to birth."

(Emphasis added)

So, a zygote is technically a "human being" according to the SCIENCE of Embryology.
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Old 05-27-2020, 06:48 PM   #783
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
Time for some SCIENCE!

The following quote is from a book titled, BEFORE WE ARE BORN: ESSENTIALS OF EMBRYOLOGY AND BIRTH DEFECTS (8th edition),
by Keith L. Moore, T.V.N. Persueud, and Mark G. Torcho.

From the section, "Introduction to Human Embryology":

"Human development begins when an oocyte (ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm (spermatozoon) from a male. Development involves many changes that transform a single cell, the zygote (fertilized ovum) into a multicellular human being. Embryology is concerned with the origin and development of a human being from a zygote to birth.."

(Emphasis added)

So, a zygote is technically a "human being" according to the SCIENCE of Embryology.
That's not necessarily an accurate interpretation of that grammatical construct. For example, the sentence fragment "..the evolution of mammals from single-celled organisms..." does not imply that single-celled organisms are mammals.
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Old 05-27-2020, 08:03 PM   #784
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
Time for some SCIENCE!



" Development involves many changes that transform a single cell, the zygote (fertilized ovum) into a multicellular human being. .

Note the descriptors. Single cell organism is called zygote. Multicellular organism is called human being.
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Old 05-27-2020, 08:14 PM   #785
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Re: framing the abortion debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
Time for some SCIENCE!

The following quote is from a book titled, BEFORE WE ARE BORN: ESSENTIALS OF EMBRYOLOGY AND BIRTH DEFECTS (8th edition),
by Drs. Keith L. Moore, T.V.N. Persaud, and Mark G. Torchia.

From the section, "Introduction to Human Embryology":

"Human development begins when an oocyte (ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm (spermatozoon) from a male. Development involves many changes that transform a single cell, the zygote (fertilized ovum) into a multicellular human being. Embryology is concerned with the origin and development of a human being from a zygote to birth."

(Emphasis added)

So, a zygote is technically a "human being" according to the SCIENCE of Embryology.

So what is the deal here anyway ?
The sperm are also alive and have the potential to become multicellular human beings.

Why draw the line at conception instead of 12 weeks ?
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Old 05-27-2020, 09:10 PM   #786
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Re: framing the abortion debate

Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
Time for some SCIENCE!

The following quote is from a book titled, BEFORE WE ARE BORN: ESSENTIALS OF EMBRYOLOGY AND BIRTH DEFECTS (8th edition),
by Drs. Keith L. Moore, T.V.N. Persaud, and Mark G. Torchia.

From the section, "Introduction to Human Embryology":

"Human development begins when an oocyte (ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm (spermatozoon) from a male. Development involves many changes that transform a single cell, the zygote (fertilized ovum) into a multicellular human being. Embryology is concerned with the origin and development of a human being from a zygote to birth."

(Emphasis added)

So, a zygote is technically a "human being" according to the SCIENCE of Embryology.
You conflict “potential” to “actual”.
And that is why terms are different .

Like I said , if an embryo is human like us , why don’t you name it at that time ?
Ho yes right ..., it got no genitals....

Why don’t you ask to an embryo if his human ?
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Old 05-27-2020, 09:21 PM   #787
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Re: framing the abortion debate

And again lagtag, how can you consider living in a free country when you permit laws that take control of the body of its citizen ?

You say it’s ok because you think saving life’s is a good reason but than again I don’t see the United States to be afraid to go to war for many other reasons that cost life !

But the real problem is someone else might find any other good reasons to pass other laws that could control you because subjectivity can be used for any causes .

How about laws that would cut any “manhood” to all man that be condemn for sexual crimes huh ?
Ps: hopefully I wish you wouldn’t be falsely accused one day .

Like I said you can be in favor for everything you like , but just don’t impose it on others.
That’s what democracy is all about .....
Unless a consensus is reach by a strong majority, because that actually how democracy works and evolves , laws that permit intrusion in the private life of its citizen shouldn’t be allowed .

If you want a totalitarian state , there are plenty Of them in existences in the world for you.

Ps: the responsibility of a government is too help cohesion of society by making laws that help to reach certain agreements on how citizens should interact socially , in the public sphere , not in their bedroom or private life ....

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 05-27-2020 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 05-27-2020, 09:46 PM   #788
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by RFlushDiamonds View Post
So what is the deal here anyway ?
The sperm are also alive and have the potential to become multicellular human beings.

Why draw the line at conception instead of 12 weeks ?
This is the ridiculous aspect of a strict anti-abortion-rights position like lagtight holds. An instant before, they're just a few cells like any other in the human body. Not crucial to life or health. Not "human". Not "sacred". No one cares if you throw them away. An instant later, they are the same microscopic sacs of cytoplasm and organelles, simply with one cell entered into another. But now, as of that instant, a group of people will scream about throwing women in prison for murdering babies if they discard that single combined cell.
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Old 05-27-2020, 10:09 PM   #789
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Max Cut View Post
This is the ridiculous aspect of a strict anti-abortion-rights position like lagtight holds. An instant before, they're just a few cells like any other in the human body. Not crucial to life or health. Not "human". Not "sacred". No one cares if you throw them away. An instant later, they are the same microscopic sacs of cytoplasm and organelles, simply with one cell entered into another. But now, as of that instant, a group of people will scream about throwing women in prison for murdering babies if they discard that single combined cell.
On that note, I keep trying to ascertain ITT whether jacking off is murder, and I can't seem to get a straight answer.

lagtight, if you could clarify where various non-procreational sexual activities fall on the homicide spectrum, that would be very helpful. I'm getting a little concerned about the whole "eternal damnation of the soul" thing now.
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:24 AM   #790
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
You conflict ďpotentialĒ to ďactualĒ.
And that is why terms are different .

Like I said , if an embryo is human like us , why donít you name it at that time ?
Ho yes right ..., it got no genitals....

Why donít you ask to an embryo if his human ?
Many people I know name their unborn child right after they learn its gender.
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:26 AM   #791
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by d2_e4 View Post
On that note, I keep trying to ascertain ITT whether jacking off is murder, and I can't seem to get a straight answer.

lagtight, if you could clarify where various non-procreational sexual activities fall on the homicide spectrum, that would be very helpful. I'm getting a little concerned about the whole "eternal damnation of the soul" thing now.
Masturbating is not murder.
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:27 AM   #792
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by d2_e4 View Post
On that note, I keep trying to ascertain ITT whether jacking off is murder, and I can't seem to get a straight answer.

lagtight, if you could clarify where various non-procreational sexual activities fall on the homicide spectrum, that would be very helpful. I'm getting a little concerned about the whole "eternal damnation of the soul" thing now.
No sexual activities are homicidal that I know of.
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:28 AM   #793
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by d2_e4 View Post
On that note, I keep trying to ascertain ITT whether jacking off is murder, and I can't seem to get a straight answer.

lagtight, if you could clarify where various non-procreational sexual activities fall on the homicide spectrum, that would be very helpful. I'm getting a little concerned about the whole "eternal damnation of the soul" thing now.
As well you should!
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:41 AM   #794
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
And again lagtag, how can you consider living in a free country when you permit laws that take control of the body of its citizen ?
"Do not use your human body to kill another human body."

Quote:
You say itís ok because you think saving lifeís is a good reason but than again I donít see the United States to be afraid to go to war for many other reasons that cost life !
I am basically a pacifist. Which is one reason I dislike our two major parties.

Quote:
But the real problem is someone else might find any other good reasons to pass other laws that could control you because subjectivity can be used for any causes .
"Do not use your human body to kill another human body."

Quote:
How about laws that would cut any ďmanhoodĒ to all man that be condemn for sexual crimes huh ?
Ps: hopefully I wish you wouldnít be falsely accused one day .
Question too vague. Please be more specific.

Quote:
Like I said you can be in favor for everything you like , but just donít impose it on others.
Thatís what democracy is all about .....
Unless a consensus is reach by a strong majority, because that actually how democracy works and evolves , laws that permit intrusion in the private life of its citizen shouldnít be allowed .
I don't get the "strong majority" part. Plus, the U.S. is NOT a democracy.

Quote:
If you want a totalitarian state , there are plenty Of them in existences in the world for you.
I oppose all forms of totalitarianism.

Quote:
Ps: the responsibility of a government is too help cohesion of society by making laws that help to reach certain agreements on how citizens should interact socially , in the public sphere , not in their bedroom or private life ....
"Do not use your human body to kill another human body."
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:50 AM   #795
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
Masturbating is not murder.
Spoken like a man who's never tried it on a heavy hangover.
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:53 AM   #796
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
No sexual activities are homicidal that I know of.
Dunno man... every time you f**k me in a chess game, I feel like I die a little inside.
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:57 AM   #797
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Dunno man... every time you f**k me in a chess game, I feel like I die a little inside.
Just keeping telling yourself, "It's only a game.....it's only a game...."
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Old 05-28-2020, 08:00 AM   #798
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
Masturbating is not murder.
Neither is abortion.

But you're talking about a moral code and we're asking you why you draw the line where you do as it seems random.

What are your parameters ?

Also, masturbation is a mortal. So......
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:35 PM   #799
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Many people I know name their unborn child right after they learn its gender.
Exactly !
And how many week/month in the pregnancy that is ?
Is it called an embryo or a baby at that point ?
Thx .....
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Old 05-28-2020, 02:51 PM   #800
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
I oppose all forms of totalitarianism.
But then again you approve the government to intervene deeply in the private life of its citizens to fit your beliefs/morality on others...


Quote:
Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
"Do not use your human body to kill another human body."
I don’t understand why you bring this when I talk about law that permit Government to take control of your body ....

You are very naive if you think only YOUR values should be respected ,
about agreeing saving life ,
permits totalitarian laws but OTHERS having other valueS ,
couldnt take the same argument as yours,
justifying other kinds of “morality subjectively “ and pass other kind laws to control your body .
Very naive that AGAIN you think you are right and others are wrong and think only YOURS thinking is correct and so only laws that fits your beliefs is permitted by state laws .

That ain’t freedom .

Ps: if the united stated ain’t a democracy than what is it ?
Enlighten me .
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