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Old 05-23-2020, 12:58 AM   #751
lagtight
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
No itís not because itís her body not yours !
So?
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Old 05-23-2020, 01:01 AM   #752
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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montreal the thing you aren't getting is the truth behind conservative and libertarian beliefs.

they want small government for themselves so they can do whatever they want, but they want REALLY BIG GOVERNMENT for everyone else, to make everyone else do what the conservatives/libertarians want them to do.

it's the same thing for religion, its freedom of religion, their religion OVER yours.

it's all a giant fraud.
I do not believe that the bolded is an accurate description of most libertarians.
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Old 05-23-2020, 01:03 AM   #753
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Why not?

So?

Why not?
Well if you think democracy is so bad , I suggest you go try live in China , Russia , North Korea or Iran ...

Why not ?
Because respecting others is not imposing your view , itís about respecting the views of all as best as possible .

Why not ?
Because I am sorry to say but you donít hold the truth about everything and people have the right to live their own life as they see fit !

And the only way to achieve this , is trough freedom of choices .
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Old 05-23-2020, 01:06 AM   #754
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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I do not believe that the bolded is an accurate description of most libertarians.
Well that exactly the results you get by asking :
why not ?
and so ?
up there ......

when you think itís ok a state impose value on their citizen certaintly isnt freedom and libertarian !

Slighted nailed it right into That coffin !
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Old 05-23-2020, 01:06 AM   #755
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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it's the same thing for religion, its freedom of religion, their religion OVER yours.

it's all a giant fraud.
Unlike many leftists, I am a big fan of the First Amendment.
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Old 05-23-2020, 01:12 AM   #756
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
Well if you think democracy is so bad , I suggest you go try live in China , Russia , North Korea or Iran ...

Why not ?
Because respecting others is not imposing your view , itís about respecting the views of all as best as possible .

Why not ?
Because I am sorry to say but you donít hold the truth about everything and people have the right to live their own life as they see fit !

And the only way to achieve this , is trough freedom of choices .
1. I think democracy is kewl in a lot of ways.

2. Are you imposing a view on me that I should respect the views of all?

3. Are you imposing on me the view that people have the right to live their life as they see fit?
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Old 05-23-2020, 08:35 AM   #757
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Defend or criticize: "Torturing children and killing unborn babies are both bad things for people to do."

Mod Note: this was excised from the "higher education" thread.
What is there to defend or criticize ?
Isn't that just a random opinion ?
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Old 05-23-2020, 11:21 AM   #758
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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What is there to defend or criticize ?

Isn't that just a random opinion ?
Depending on one's worldview, it can range from bring a random opinion to a moral absolute.

If it's at least a non-random opinion, it is still possible that some opinions are better than others.
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Old 05-23-2020, 02:06 PM   #759
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
1. I think democracy is kewl in a lot of ways.

2. Are you imposing a view on me that I should respect the views of all?

3. Are you imposing on me the view that people have the right to live their life as they see fit?
1. Then why try impose your views on others by restricting freedom of action and will f you find democracy kewl?

2.you can do what you want.

3. This is backward , I’m protecting the right to live YOUR life as you see fit .
And the only way to make that happen is that everyone have the same rights ....
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Old 05-24-2020, 01:56 AM   #760
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
1. Then why try impose your views on others by restricting freedom of action and will f you find democracy kewl?

2.you can do what you want.

3. This is backward , Iím protecting the right to live YOUR life as you see fit .
And the only way to make that happen is that everyone have the same rights ....
1. EVERY law in existence imposes a view on everyone. I think laws that protect innocent human lives are usually pretty good.

2. I do.

3. I appreciate your desire for my right to live my life as I see fit. I would like to extend that right to unborn humans.
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Old 05-24-2020, 02:01 AM   #761
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Re: framing the abortion debate

If Roe versus Wade got overturned, then each state could presumably determine their own abortion laws.

If a state passes a voter-approved referendum that bans all abortions, is that fine with the pro-democracy people in this Forum?
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:55 AM   #762
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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If Roe versus Wade got overturned, then each state could presumably determine their own abortion laws.

If a state passes a voter-approved referendum that bans all abortions, is that fine with the pro-democracy people in this Forum?
I think it’s fine as long you don’t condemn those that go in other states to do it .
But I’ll give you an hint , if that passes it will be the end of the conservatism movement on the national scale .

I mean freedom of guns but not freedom for woman to chose for their own body ?
Giving the state of rights over woman body ?
You adhere to Taliban or totalitarian government much ?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

“Totalitarianism is a political system or a form of government that prohibits opposition parties, restricts individual opposition to the state and its claims, and exercises an extremely high degree of control over public and private life.“

Do I need to name the leaders of those kind of political movement ?

Your view isn’t respectful of our Democratic system at all ,
just to respect some kind of code, morality Or religion you would have on others .....

Freedom of choice gives you all the rights you need for your private life but not to control the personal life of others .....
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Old 05-24-2020, 08:14 AM   #763
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
So?
So mind your own business. You have the freedom to choose to get a vasectomy for example and I doubt if you'd be keen on women wanting to prevent you from doing this. Don't be telling women what to do with their bodies.
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Old 05-24-2020, 08:16 AM   #764
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
Defend or criticize: "Torturing children and killing unborn babies are both bad things for people to do."

Mod Note: this was excised from the "higher education" thread.
They're not remotely apt comparisons as a cluster of cells isn't an unborn "baby".
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Old 05-24-2020, 08:44 AM   #765
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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What is there to defend or criticize ?
Isn't that just a random opinion ?
I don't think you framed it in such a way that it can be defended or criticized.

In the US we torture children all the time. We don't provide for them, we separate them from their parents we often send them off to fight for profit wars and neglect them when they come back broken.

So do we, as a society think torture is wrong ? I'd argue that it's not very high on the list, if it's there at all.

And the same for killing babies. The US kills babies all the time. We're always in some war dropping bombs and firing drones at people. Babies die.

If you're framing an abortion debate you're not even dealing with children or babies anyway. Those are terms that describe humans that have already been born.

The statement is framed more to evoke an emotional response which is illogical once you put it in perspective. Humans aren't gentle and even if we were we can't control everything. So.....killing and torture happens.

Just not to children and babies irt abortion.
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Old 05-24-2020, 10:49 AM   #766
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Re: framing the abortion debate

On the fetus/baby/toddler distinction:
This kid I watch is now 13 months and finally toddling. At first she was a sidestepper but now it's full on toddling. Whenever she starts to cry over something stupid I say "Hey! Don't be a baby. You're a toddler now". And that's usually enough to get her back into shape.
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Old 05-24-2020, 11:07 AM   #767
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc View Post
On the fetus/baby/toddler distinction:
This kid I watch is now 13 months and finally toddling. At first she was a sidestepper but now it's full on toddling. Whenever she starts to cry over something stupid I say "Hey! Don't be a baby. You're a toddler now". And that's usually enough to get her back into shape.
On the basis of this persuasive and deeply moving personal testimony, I agree that 13 month-old todddlers should not be aborted.
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Old 05-24-2020, 11:41 AM   #768
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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On the basis of this persuasive and deeply moving personal testimony, I agree that 13 month-old todddlers should not be aborted.
Luckbox used to hold the contrary position.
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Old 05-24-2020, 12:02 PM   #769
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc View Post
On the fetus/baby/toddler distinction:
This kid I watch is now 13 months and finally toddling. At first she was a sidestepper but now it's full on toddling. Whenever she starts to cry over something stupid I say "Hey! Don't be a baby. You're a toddler now". And that's usually enough to get her back into shape.

So you torture her ?
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Old 05-24-2020, 12:07 PM   #770
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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So you torture her ?
I don't follow?
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Old 05-24-2020, 12:11 PM   #771
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Luckbox used to hold the contrary position.
We're hard wired to protect the young of our particular tribe.
That's why the 'killing babies' meme is so effective. It strikes an emotional chord.

But let's be honest. We're not talking about babies.
And I'm a guy who personally errs on the side of caution.
I prefer to teach birth control because it's cheap and easy and you don't have to worry about if you ended a life that may have cured cancer 30 years down the line.
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Old 05-24-2020, 12:12 PM   #772
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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I don't follow?
Well, in the context of this thread making her cry may be construed as torture.

If you can torture a life form with no developed brain then anything is possible.
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Old 05-24-2020, 05:44 PM   #773
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
I think itís fine as long you donít condemn those that go in other states to do it .
In that situation, I can condemn them all I want. I just would have no legal standing to STOP her from getting an abortion in another state.

Quote:
But Iíll give you an hint , if that passes it will be the end of the conservatism movement on the national scale .
Thanks for the hint.
Quote:
I mean freedom of guns but not freedom for woman to chose for their own body ?
I believe in gun control. But nice try, Skippy.

I believe a woman should have full control over her own body other than killing another human life within her body.

Quote:
]Giving the state of rights over woman body ?
You adhere to Taliban or totalitarian government much ?
Unlike most of the leftists, I oppose totalitarianism.
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:01 PM   #774
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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We're hard wired to protect the young of our particular tribe.
That's a bit simplified. If you look at the anthropological evidence, we're more hardwired to ensure our survival. Rearing children is a part of that.

Killing children was a common habit in neolithic times for example. If times were hard, children were killed to save food and resources. You have estimates that state that perhaps between 20% and 50% of children were killed for this purpose. We also have evidence that similar practices were carried out by hunter-gatherer tribes.

And if you assume a harsh fight for resources, it makes sense. Children were the ones that were replaceable when "either some die or we all die" dilemmas came about.

This isn't to say that we aren't currently living in cultures where the value of children is set incredibly high, but that doesn't mean we're hardwired for this. Instead this very much seems like learned complex behavior and culture. Of course, we also have far fewer children - so we actually get to know them a bit.
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Old 05-24-2020, 07:33 PM   #775
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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I believe in gun control. But nice try, Skippy.
Nice try about what ?
Good for you if you believe in them .


Quote:
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I believe a woman should have full control over her own body other than killing another human life within her

Unlike most of the leftists, I oppose totalitarianism.
You serious ?
Totalitarianism isn’t left ot right ....
Benito Mussolini wasn’t a leftish !

Reread the definition :
” ... and exercises an extremely high degree of control over public and private life”.

Justifying a state to proclaim a law to apply your value of “belief”
{example : a cell ( embryo) is a human}
and permit the state to control a person physic is a totalitarian trait .
certainly not a freedom trait !

Ps: but you already so mixed up scientifically about what is a human , it’s kinda of normal I guess you are as well about some political definition as well .

Why don’t you tell us why you think a cell is the same as human ?
Explain to us .

Example : is an egg a chicken ?
Does it have the same attribut ?
Does it have the same expenses of energy?
Does both have the same reaction vs danger ?
Etc ....

When you eat 2 eggs at breakfast , do you say you eat 2 chickens ?
Do You eat the same amount of calories when you eat 2 eggs instead of 2 chicken ?
Does 1 egg and 1 chicken cost the same price ?

That’s what basically you say when you say an embryo (without a brain, genital, you can’t even say if it’s male or female so you can’t even attribut a name , etc ) is the same as a human ...

You can used any vocabulary parables you like but you don’t hold the right to impose your beliefs on others in a democracy ....

Unless you scientifically proved us you are right , arbitrary beliefs isn’t good enough to submit to your will , fortunately .

There is a reason we call today ,
the period of arbitrary beliefs That Ruled most civilisations between 500 to around 14-1500 ad , the dark ages .

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 05-24-2020 at 07:49 PM.
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