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Old 05-22-2020, 02:49 AM   #726
Slighted
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Please try asking a shorter question. Thanks.
hey i get it man. conservative and "libertarian" beliefs start to not make sense when you actually have to try and defend them.
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Old 05-22-2020, 02:57 AM   #727
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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A fetus is after around 10 weeks .
I specifically said embryo .
Itís a cell without a brain , genitals, etc .
So itís a lower form of life .

But as long you said , in your opinion itís fine .
But state laws shouldnít be an opinion , especially when itís a law that would make abortion illegal and preventing the freedom of choice of the individuals About their OWN body !
Freedom of choices for the individuals , one of the highest liberty of the United states celebrated throughout the world shouldnít be treated lightly.
Especially when an opinion has different ramifications depending on Which religions , sciences or other reasoning individuals abide to.

Better to give the freedom of choices than impose a view that is far from being consensual because thruth is very subjective !
Your two statements that I bolded literally contradict each other, I believe. DUCY?
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Old 05-22-2020, 03:06 AM   #728
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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hey i get it man. conservative and "libertarian" beliefs start to not make sense when you actually have to try and defend them.
I 'm trying to have a serious conversation here. If you are not interested in such a conversation, so be it.

Stay well!
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Old 05-22-2020, 05:39 AM   #729
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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I 'm trying to have a serious conversation here. If you are not interested in such a conversation, so be it.

Stay well!
Nah, you are just stating a morality based belief that has no scientific basis, legal standing or practicality.
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Old 05-22-2020, 06:41 AM   #730
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Nah, you are just stating a morality based belief that has no scientific basis, legal standing or practicality.
"morality based belief" = True. Just like virtually every law on the books, a law prohibiting abortion is morality based. I hear morality based arguments all the time IN FAVOR of abortion rights. And M4A, and a bunch of stuff.

"no scientific basis" = False, in my opinion. A human life exists at conception.

"no legal standing" = Unless Roe v. Wade is overturned, this statement is correct.

"no practicality" = Time will tell.

Stay well!
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:43 PM   #731
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Your two statements that I bolded literally contradict each other, I believe. DUCY?
Nope, DUCY?

Because liberty of choice let people apply THEIR beliefs !
Your pro life , than you donít abort !
Your not pro life you abort !

Thatís freedom of choices and beliefs .
You advocate the state to prevent abortion for all ...
So you go in the private life of citizen about their beliefs and impose 1 vision by the state !
That ainít freedom , itís an imposition of a subjective truth of one part vision of the population over the other .

I always find the concept of :
prevention of choices would be define as liberty ,
Very funny ....
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:58 PM   #732
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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"morality based belief" = True. Just like virtually every law on the books, a law prohibiting abortion is morality based. I hear morality based arguments all the time IN FAVOR of abortion rights. And M4A, and a bunch of stuff.

"no scientific basis" = False, in my opinion. A human life exists at conception.

"no legal standing" = Unless Roe v. Wade is overturned, this statement is correct.

"no practicality" = Time will tell.

Stay well!
That’s the problem ...
Scientific is not an opinion ....
You keep interfering a lot of your argument with : in your opinion .

So yes you impose your moral , religion or w.e you want to call it, values on others , which is subjective .

Is it wrong to impose a moral truth by law ?
Not necessarily, it depends in which society you live in .
The problem lies about where society has grown in their values .

When you have a subjective truth that ain’t accepted by at least half the population, it certainly ain’t right to impose such a law .
Only society that are lead by communist, totalitarian, dictatorship or theocracy values, does this .

But in a democracy , the state shouldn’t impose an arbitrary belief, truth, value ( since like 50% of the population doesn’t share that truth ) by law , clearly.

That’s how a democratic society evolve with time ( and not enclosed in non sense religion belief written by a book 2000 or more years ago and prevent society to evolve and adapt to new reality of its environment, or a political vision like communism ,etc.) , that’s how you see laws changed based on its population values that try to respect the majority of its citizen .
It helps as well the cohesion of society ...

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 05-22-2020 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 05-22-2020, 03:52 PM   #733
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Re: framing the abortion debate

montreal the thing you aren't getting is the truth behind conservative and libertarian beliefs.

they want small government for themselves so they can do whatever they want, but they want REALLY BIG GOVERNMENT for everyone else, to make everyone else do what the conservatives/libertarians want them to do.

it's the same thing for religion, its freedom of religion, their religion OVER yours.

it's all a giant fraud.
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Old 05-22-2020, 04:05 PM   #734
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
Nope, DUCY?



Because liberty of choice let people apply THEIR beliefs !

Your pro life , than you donít abort !

Your not pro life you abort !



Thatís freedom of choices and beliefs .

You advocate the state to prevent abortion for all ...

So you go in the private life of citizen about their beliefs and impose 1 vision by the state !

That ainít freedom , itís an imposition of a subjective truth of one part vision of the population over the other .



I always find the concept of :

prevention of choices would be define as liberty ,

Very funny ....
You pro-taxation, pay your taxes.

You anti-taxation, don't pay your taxes.

"My Money My Choice"
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Old 05-22-2020, 05:26 PM   #735
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Slighted View Post
montreal the thing you aren't getting is the truth behind conservative and libertarian beliefs.

they want small government for themselves so they can do whatever they want, but they want REALLY BIG GOVERNMENT for everyone else, to make everyone else do what the conservatives/libertarians want them to do.

it's the same thing for religion, its freedom of religion, their religion OVER yours.

it's all a giant fraud.
Very true.
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Old 05-22-2020, 05:49 PM   #736
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Slighted View Post
montreal the thing you aren't getting is the truth behind conservative and libertarian beliefs.

they want small government for themselves so they can do whatever they want, but they want REALLY BIG GOVERNMENT for everyone else, to make everyone else do what the conservatives/libertarians want them to do.

it's the same thing for religion, its freedom of religion, their religion OVER yours.

it's all a giant fraud.

+1
Yeah probably !
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Old 05-22-2020, 05:51 PM   #737
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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You pro-taxation, pay your taxes.

You anti-taxation, don't pay your taxes.

"My Money My Choice"
is money a moral value now ?

And you said you want an intelligent conversation while you try to derail it ?
Ok ...

Ps : and yes unfortunately , a lot of rich people instead of paying taxes put their money illegally into tax heaven , so your almost right.
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Old 05-22-2020, 08:11 PM   #738
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
is money a moral value now ?

And you said you want an intelligent conversation while you try to derail it ?
Ok ...

Ps : and yes unfortunately , a lot of rich people instead of paying taxes put their money illegally into tax heaven , so your almost right.
Taxation is a moral issue. That's why wealthy people pay more taxes. To help subsidize less fortunate folks.
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Old 05-22-2020, 08:12 PM   #739
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
is money a moral value now ?

And you said you want an intelligent conversation while you try to derail it ?
Ok ...

Ps : and yes unfortunately , a lot of rich people instead of paying taxes put their money illegally into tax heaven , so your almost right.
Money is a moral issue. That's why many are in favor of a GMI.
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Old 05-22-2020, 08:14 PM   #740
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Re: framing the abortion debate

They pay more (supposedly) to protect what they have and it's not really analogous to having choice about abortion. It's not like choosing to not pay taxes (assuming it were legal) would remove the benefits you receive (such as law enforcement to protect your treasure).
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:20 PM   #741
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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They pay more (supposedly) to protect what they have and it's not really analogous to having choice about abortion. It's not like choosing to not pay taxes (assuming it were legal) would remove the benefits you receive (such as law enforcement to protect your treasure).
+1

Btw lagtag , I would as well opposed any law from the state that would force a woman to have an abortion in case Her life would be endangered by a baby .

It’s HER choice first , and I will always give freedom of choice first to an individual before the state .

Like I’m in favor of laws that permit suicide for people stuck in painful last stage of life , like a terminal cancer .
An individual should always have the freedom to chose for his life before the states does , it’s that simple .

The principal about life first under any context is a personal belief more than anything .

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 05-22-2020 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:29 PM   #742
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Money is a moral issue. That's why many are in favor of a GMI.
Your missing the point .
Money is not a moral value you need to believe in it or not !
Money exist , it’s a fact and it’s use is not debatable.

Considering an embryo The same as a human being is far from being a consensus like money .....
Im seing myself as having more effect on the planet earth than a embryo for example .
I have a brain , genitals , I can make baby , I have a name , I can survive by myself , I can breath , etc ....
And I don’t agree an embryo should have the right to dictate my life .

If I eat an egg I say I eat an egg , not a chicken .

Now do i agree You have the rights to believe and do live your life according to your beliefs ?
Absolutely and if you are pro life and against abortion , I let you decided you and your family to not abort in any case , even if it endangered the mother .
It’s your choice based on your belief .

But I will certainly not accept your belief , about what a human and what life is , be more important than mine for sure tho .

Having a law that forbids abortion Don’t respect the private life of a lot of Americans women while having a law that permits abortion respect the private life of both parties since each can apply in their own life their own values about a pregnancy .

religion , moral value etc is not a state affair but a personal one .
agreeing to a supposedly free country to let a state impose moral value to its citizen isn’t a democracy and certainly is not a free country .
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:23 AM   #743
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
Your missing the point .
Money is not a moral value you need to believe in it or not !
Money exist , itís a fact and itís use is not debatable.

Considering an embryo The same as a human being is far from being a consensus like money .....
Im seing myself as having more effect on the planet earth than a embryo for example .
I have a brain , genitals , I can make baby , I have a name , I can survive by myself , I can breath , etc ....
And I donít agree an embryo should have the right to dictate my life .

If I eat an egg I say I eat an egg , not a chicken .

Now do i agree You have the rights to believe and do live your life according to your beliefs ?
Absolutely and if you are pro life and against abortion , I let you decided you and your family to not abort in any case , even if it endangered the mother .
Itís your choice based on your belief .

But I will certainly not accept your belief , about what a human and what life is , be more important than mine for sure tho .

Having a law that forbids abortion Donít respect the private life of a lot of Americans women while having a law that permits abortion respect the private life of both parties since each can apply in their own life their own values about a pregnancy .

religion , moral value etc is not a state affair but a personal one .
agreeing to a supposedly free country to let a state impose moral value to its citizen isnít a democracy and certainly is not a free country .
Virtually every law imposes a moral value on the public, including members of the public who do not share that moral value.
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:27 AM   #744
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Re: framing the abortion debate

The claim that the State ought not be allowed to prevent women from having abortions is a MORAL claim.
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:29 AM   #745
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Re: framing the abortion debate

Both sides in the abortion rights debate are invoking moral principles.
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:31 AM   #746
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Re: framing the abortion debate

"My body, My Choice" is a moral claim.
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:50 AM   #747
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Re: framing the abortion debate

Do you understand freedom of choices respect all beliefs of the citizens but a law that prevent freedom of choice doesn’t respect everyone beliefs in Their personal life ?

Do you agree about this ?
And if yes , why your personal beliefs should have more value than mine ?
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:53 AM   #748
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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"My body, My Choice" is a moral claim.
No it’s not because it’s her body not yours !
You try to have a moral claim on her because it’s her body .
What moral claims she as on you when she want to decide for herself about her body and life ????
How do you translate that into your morality !
It doesn’t concern you at all ....
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:53 AM   #749
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post

When you have a subjective truth that ainít accepted by at least half the population, it certainly ainít right to impose such a law .
Why not?

Quote:
Only society that are lead by communist, totalitarian, dictatorship or theocracy values, does this .
So?

Quote:
But in a democracy , the state shouldnít impose an arbitrary belief, truth, value ( since like 50% of the population doesnít share that truth ) by law , clearly.
Why not?
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:55 AM   #750
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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The claim that the State ought not be allowed to prevent women from having abortions is a MORAL claim.

Freedom of choices is utmost important when society doesn’t agree on a subject .
that’s why democracy is better than any totalitarian , theocracy or dictatorship state because they rule by imposing one set of beliefs, value on an entire population while in democracy you have less “morality laws “ to respect the freedom choices and beliefs of its citizens .

I mean it’s staggering that if your a true libertarian you think the states should intervene in the personal life and beliefs of its citizens ...
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