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Old 05-15-2020, 07:45 AM   #701
lagtight
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by chezlaw View Post
You're confusing me a bit. Sounded like you would give me a univocal right to switch my baby making machine off. Did I misunderstand?
Sorry, but I don't know what you mean by the bo!ded.
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Old 05-15-2020, 07:53 AM   #702
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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It is scientifically disingenuous and society's resources would be much better spent elsewhere. For example, on trying to save/enrich actual born children.
I believe that protecting and enriching human lives at ALL STAGES of life is a worthy endeavor.
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Old 05-15-2020, 07:59 AM   #703
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Max Cut View Post
Have you ever heard anyone getting liposuction say "I'm going to murder my fat"?

Do you hear people using the term murder in debates about liposuction?
I believe that typically "murder" refers to "wrongful killing".

Someone choosing to undergo a liposuction procedure is not likely to believe that their fat is being WRONGFULLY killed.

Hitler, for example, didnt believe that he was "murdering" Jews, because in his mind Jews were sub-human, and deserved death.

edit: Some PETA members refer to the slaughter of turkeys around Thanksgiving as a "holocaust". They would say that turkeys are being murdered, not merely killed.
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Old 05-15-2020, 08:15 AM   #704
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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I believe they are part of the penumbra “right to privacy” concept from interpretation by the SC opinions over the years but I am rusty on my Constitutional law. Usually when two rights conflict, a balancing test is developed to determine which right supersedes the other.

Reproductive rights would be the right to engage in sex in and out of marriage for procreation and for pleasure, use or not use birth control and what kind and decide to terminate a pregnancy.

Do you mean unequivocal right? What about the the other parts of reproductive rights do you think they should not have an unequivocal choice?
I believe that consensual sex between two adults should not be interfered with.

I believe that at conception a new human life has been created, which alters the situation considerably. Falsely yelling "Fire!" In an empty theatre is fine, while yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre is not fine.
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Old 05-15-2020, 08:18 AM   #705
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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And if any man impregnates a woman who doesn’t intend to carry the fetus to term then that man should be charged with a crime. Amirite?
Sure.
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Old 05-15-2020, 08:37 AM   #706
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
I believe that consensual sex between two adults should not be interfered with.

I believe that at conception a new human life has been created, which alters the situation considerably. Falsely yelling "Fire!" In an empty theatre is fine, while yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre is not fine.
Other than your rape, incest or health exceptions, after pregnant, does a woman have any right to terminate a pregnancy without governmental interference?

Your first amendment analogy is awful.
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Old 05-15-2020, 12:25 PM   #707
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Re: framing the abortion debate

I believe he's answered that many times in the negative. I can't remember if he's stated a position for the exceptions you listed. I'm guessing those are a negative as well, with maybe saving the mother's life as the only exception.
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Old 05-15-2020, 12:30 PM   #708
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
I believe that typically "murder" refers to "wrongful killing".

Someone choosing to undergo a liposuction procedure is not likely to believe that their fat is being WRONGFULLY killed.

Hitler, for example, didnt believe that he was "murdering" Jews, because in his mind Jews were sub-human, and deserved death.

edit: Some PETA members refer to the slaughter of turkeys around Thanksgiving as a "holocaust". They would say that turkeys are being murdered, not merely killed.
Without question
  • most people undergoing abortion are not likely to believe their tiny clump of cells is being wrongfully killed,
  • Hitler murdered Jews, and
  • cool story, bro.
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Old 05-15-2020, 02:39 PM   #709
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
Other than your rape, incest or health exceptions, after pregnant, does a woman have any right to terminate a pregnancy without governmental interference?



Your first amendment analogy is awful.
I actually didn't think of it as a "first amendment" analogy, which probably proves that I made a poor choice of analogies.

The point I was making is that an "absolute right" can in some cases be a "conditional right" when a third party is involved.

Here maybe is a better analogy (hopefully):

Any person with a valid driver's license has a right to drive, but not a right to drive while intoxicated. Because a third party could be adversely affected.
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Old 05-15-2020, 02:43 PM   #710
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Max Cut View Post
I believe he's answered that many times in the negative. I can't remember if he's stated a position for the exceptions you listed. I'm guessing those are a negative as well, with maybe saving the mother's life as the only exception.
I believe that rape, incest, and mother's health exceptions should be considered in any law attempting to prohibit abortions.
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Old 05-15-2020, 05:18 PM   #711
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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I'm so pro-life that I'm even happy that Max wasn't aborted.

Edit: i actually like Max. He is a straight shooter who pulls no punches. (Sorry for the mixed metaphor).
I gotta think sitting around chatting to mostly grown dudes on a card forum is about the least effective strategy imaginable for realizing that goal.

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Originally Posted by Crossnerd View Post
And if any man impregnates a woman who doesn’t intend to carry the fetus to term then that man should be charged with a crime. Amirite?
Hell, I wonder why all those supposedly 'pro-life' boomers had so many abortions.
Not to mention how many basically ditched their kids that were born with little to no real consequences.
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Old 05-15-2020, 05:23 PM   #712
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by wet work View Post
I gotta think sitting around chatting to mostly grown dudes on a card forum is about the least effective strategy imaginable for realizing that goal.







Hell, I wonder why all those supposedly 'pro-life' boomers had so many abortions.

Not to mention how many basically ditched their kids that were born with little to no real consequences.
As a Boomer myself, I can vouch for the fact that "my" generation is one of the most degenerate generations in American history.

Maybe the very WORST generation in U.S. history.
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Old 05-15-2020, 07:25 PM   #713
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
I believe that rape, incest, and mother's health exceptions should be considered in any law attempting to prohibit abortions.
Does a woman have any right to not take a pregnancy full term once pregnant in your world where laws should consider your three exceptions? Could they seek state approval before getting an abortion under your worldview?
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Old 05-15-2020, 07:26 PM   #714
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
I believe that rape, incest, and mother's health exceptions should be considered in any law attempting to prohibit abortions.
Does a woman have any right to not take a pregnancy full term once pregnant in your world where laws should consider your three exceptions? Could they seek state approval before getting an abortion under your worldview?

Do women have the right to use birth control?
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Old 05-16-2020, 09:05 AM   #715
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
Does a woman have any right to not take a pregnancy full term once pregnant in your world where laws should consider your three exceptions? Could they seek state approval before getting an abortion under your worldview?



Do women have the right to use birth control?
I believe that at any point prior to conception the woman should have a right to any form of birth control she chooses.

A woman seeking an abortion would require state approval. (A state-licensed physician could act as an agent of the state in this situation to determine if an abortion would be lawful in any given case.)

Edit: Probably a panel of physicians might be required.
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Old 05-16-2020, 09:50 AM   #716
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Re: framing the abortion debate

Criminalize sperm imo.
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Old 05-16-2020, 11:09 AM   #717
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Re: framing the abortion debate

Charging $500 for each orgasm makes the most sense.
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Old 05-16-2020, 11:10 AM   #718
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Re: framing the abortion debate

I'm confused. Am I a murderer, or a fine dodger?
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Old 05-17-2020, 12:50 AM   #719
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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In my opinion, there is no period during the pregnancy where abortion is an absolute right.
Allright.
I just don’t see And don’t agree how you think a woman , has less rights and freedom of choices vs the government , over her body for an organism ( embryo) that doesn’t even have a brain and no genital organs to procreate ....


I left out the term fetus cause it’s far from being the same now ....
Wouldn’t u agree a higher living form have naturally more power And freedom of choices over a «*lesser*» living form .
If you don’t agree , are u vegan ?

Ps: how do you cope with a born baby for example , who can survive with a blood transfusion or a organs transplant but end up not having it due to religion beliefs of the parents ?
Who wins in that scenario ?

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 05-17-2020 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 05-21-2020, 11:40 PM   #720
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
I believe that at any point prior to conception the woman should have a right to any form of birth control she chooses.

A woman seeking an abortion would require state approval. (A state-licensed physician could act as an agent of the state in this situation to determine if an abortion would be lawful in any given case.)

Edit: Probably a panel of physicians might be required.
would the state pay for all prenatal care, every doctors visit, transportation to and from every doctors visit, any and all lost wages from missing work for said doctors visits, every meal the mother eats during pregnancy, all hospital care for both mother and child during birth, all medical care for mother post birth, all costs associated with raising the child until they are 18 whether or not the child is put up for adoption, all current and future earning potential that may have been lost due to carrying the unwanted fetus to term, and of course any and all extra costs like mental health care, and anything else that may come up?

because if any of that is answered in the negative the state should probably shut the **** up and mind its own business mr fake libertarian.
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Old 05-22-2020, 12:02 AM   #721
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
Allright.
I just don’t see And don’t agree how you think a woman , has less rights and freedom of choices vs the government , over her body for an organism ( embryo) that doesn’t even have a brain and no genital organs to procreate ....


I left out the term fetus cause it’s far from being the same now ....
Wouldn’t u agree a higher living form have naturally more power And freedom of choices over a «*lesser*» living form .
If you don’t agree , are u vegan ?

Ps: how do you cope with a born baby for example , who can survive with a blood transfusion or a organs transplant but end up not having it due to religion beliefs of the parents ?
Who wins in that scenario ?
In my opinion, a parent ought not to be allowed to deny their child life-saving medical procedures.
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Old 05-22-2020, 12:06 AM   #722
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Slighted View Post
would the state pay for all prenatal care, every doctors visit, transportation to and from every doctors visit, any and all lost wages from missing work for said doctors visits, every meal the mother eats during pregnancy, all hospital care for both mother and child during birth, all medical care for mother post birth, all costs associated with raising the child until they are 18 whether or not the child is put up for adoption, all current and future earning potential that may have been lost due to carrying the unwanted fetus to term, and of course any and all extra costs like mental health care, and anything else that may come up?

because if any of that is answered in the negative the state should probably shut the **** up and mind its own business mr fake libertarian.
Please try asking a shorter question. Thanks.
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:11 AM   #723
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
Allright.
I just don’t see And don’t agree how you think a woman , has less rights and freedom of choices vs the government , over her body for an organism ( embryo) that doesn’t even have a brain and no genital organs to procreate ....


I left out the term fetus cause it’s far from being the same now ....
Wouldn’t u agree a higher living form have naturally more power And freedom of choices over a «*lesser*» living form?
About this lagtag ?
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:46 AM   #724
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
Allright.
I just don’t see And don’t agree how you think a woman , has less rights and freedom of choices vs the government , over her body for an organism ( embryo) that doesn’t even have a brain and no genital organs to procreate ....


I left out the term fetus cause it’s far from being the same now ....
Wouldn’t u agree a higher living form have naturally more power And freedom of choices over a «*lesser*» living form .
If you don’t agree , are u vegan ?

Ps: how do you cope with a born baby for example , who can survive with a blood transfusion or a organs transplant but end up not having it due to religion beliefs of the parents ?
Who wins in that scenario ?
The fetus is a human life, therefore its life ought to be protected, in my opinion.
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Old 05-22-2020, 02:42 AM   #725
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Re: framing the abortion debate

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The fetus is a human life, therefore its life ought to be protected, in my opinion.
A fetus is after around 10 weeks .
I specifically said embryo .
It’s a cell without a brain , genitals, etc .
So it’s a lower form of life .

But as long you said , in your opinion it’s fine .
But state laws shouldn’t be an opinion , especially when it’s a law that would make abortion illegal and preventing the freedom of choice of the individuals About their OWN body !
Freedom of choices for the individuals , one of the highest liberty of the United states celebrated throughout the world shouldn’t be treated lightly.
Especially when an opinion has different ramifications depending on Which religions , sciences or other reasoning individuals abide to.

Better to give the freedom of choices than impose a view that is far from being consensual because thruth is very subjective !
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