Well, you can draw a conclusion either way. Humans have inherent value or they don't.

If they don't then there is no such thing as human rights and most of the lefties here would have nothing to whine about.

I mean if mothers have no value (or less than a fly) then who cares if the patriarchy controls them ?


The fact that we care about this stuff implies we think humans do have value.
Even if that's inconvenient when the abortion issue comes up.

People have rights when convenient and when inconvenient they don't. Problem solved.

Is this similar to caring about unborn fetuses but not caring about kindergartners being shot in school?

This makes perfect sense to me. Anyone who is anti abortion must at the very least be a vegetarian who champions animal rights for their beliefs to make any sense to me.

Rape is a crime, so why should the rapist be allowed to benefit from his crime by having his genes proliferated?

Isn't this all just about making sure men dominate women?

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/religi...d-why-n1285268

This is such a weird way to talk about rape. I'm pretty sure that you average rapist is not motivated by a desire to spread his genetic material. For that reason, I doubt the average rapist considers producing a child to be a reward.

For that matter, I don't consider producing a child through consensual sex to be some sort of reward for good behavior by the father.

Rape is a crime of violence. It's not about sex. Anyone who thinks rapists do it to proliferate their genes is a bit dumb.

I will be "conspicuous by my absence" on this topic, since I am down to my last strike in this Forum.

It's "by". "Conspicuous by my absence."

Thank you, sir! I have corrected my post. I ain't no grammarian!

Today is the 51st anniversary of the landmark Roe v. Wade decision.

In Tennessee, a woman excited to grow her family was denied
a lifesaving abortion because a trigger ban had gone into effect.
As a result, she had to undergo an emergency hysterectomy — preventing her from ever having another child.

In Oklahoma, a mother of three learned that her pregnancy was
nonviable and had resulted in a rare cancer. Still, her doctors’ hands were tied.
She was told to wait in the parking lot for her condition to
deteriorate before she could get the medical help she needed.

In Florida, a hopeful mom-to-be’s water broke 16 weeks into her pregnancy.
She rushed to the emergency room. But the doctors could only
offer antibiotics, send her home, and promise to pray for her.
She lost half the blood in her body before she could get treatment and escape death.

This is the dangerous, daily reality of Americans living in the 21 states where
abortion rights have been restricted or abolished since Roe v. Wade was overturned.

Donald Trump and the MAGA Republican Party have made their views clear:
They are proud to have denied health care to pregnant women,
and they intend to enact a nationwide ban on abortion

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-...024-rcna134945

Please show me were Trump wants a complete ban ?

It’s a losing issue for the GOP . The majority of Americans want something like Europe or Canada 14-20 weeks .

When it’s on the state ballot the GOP has lost every time . I’m sure many rep wished it was never overturned but elections have consequences .
If Trump wins you could see another Supreme Court justice selection for Trump

20 weeks doing a lot of work in your "majority of Americans" statement to try and squeeze in 14 which is an LOL no. 20 was around what ROE already was and where only something like 1% of abortions happen after that anyway.

Who could possibly expect southern states to pass complete abortion bans when bragging about appointing the judges that overturned Roe v Wade and the federal protection of privacy rights? The syncophants are now trying to disguise a lack of foresight as an intermediate stance?

An absolute majority of american adults wants abortion to be illegal from the second trimester (that's the 13-14 weeks cutoff), while a supermajority wants it legal in the first trimester (and easy at that, with pills), which is the european normal, median opinion as well

This is Gallup may 2023, after roe v wade reversal



https://news.gallup.com/poll/321143/...-abortion.aspx

Roe was "viability" (ability to live outside the womb) which was usually translated as 24+ weeks, which is roughly late/end of second trimester.

Roe allowed no question asked abortion at will at 22 weeks which is something that no country in europe allows afaik, no major party asks for in any european country afaik, which basically puts the democratic party to the left of basically every major leftist party in europe (and possibly the world) on this topic, by a large margin.

Oregon abortion rules are considered horrifying by the vast majority of european adults, to the point most people on the left literally don't believe those rules when you tell them, they don't believe a reasonable center left party (what they consider democrats to be, given their positions on many other topics) could write and enforce those rules.

Meanwhile the anti-abortionist extremists (approx 1 adult american in 8) which want NO exception abortion bans have no counterpart in europe as well afaik, and the roughly 1/3 american adult which wants very little abortion access (only with rare exceptions) only has the most extremist european parties as counterpart (ie rightwing parties in France and Italy for ex are ok with at-will first trimester abortion).

The "problem" of abortion has been basically solved in most places around the 70s , treating the fetus differently depending on development, treating it as "almost nothing" while still microscopic and far from being a "fully human life", while allowing exceptions for mother health and severe development problems later on acknowledging the more it grows the closer to a full human life deserving legal consideration it gets.

America is still at the "all or nothing" stage for a significant portion of the population, but the trend is clear there as well, european-like solutions are favoured by majorities/super majorities as per data provided.

Trump flip flopped on the topic so many times in his public life , taking what he says as anything other than "what he thinks he gains by saying" would be a mistake.

That said, he recently insisted to be in favour of abortion only for rare exceptions, he said "mother life risk, rape, incest". So his most recent comment on the topic would make Trump against at-will abortion in the first trimester, for example.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trum...y?id=106280890

we can argue polling if you want. 51% in AP-NORC supported abortion at 15 weeks in their polling in 2022, so an absolute majority of American adults wants abortion to be legal into the second trimester.

ohio had an actual election(not just polling) this past year to enshrine the protection to abortion up until "fetal viability" in their constitution which is akin to the Roe standard and it won with 57% of the vote. even after the republicans pulled multiple tricks to try and prevent it from happening and to move the election to a random off time.

even in states like oregon late term abortions are a boogeyman that the right uses in propaganda but rarely ever happens. in Oregon 89% of abortions happened in the first 12 weeks, while less than 1% occurred in the third trimester which is about the same nationally.


as a progressive i want the dems to push abortion to the forefront of every election they can in every state they can. if ohio can pass a state wide Roe than most other places probably can as well.

a total ban was always the plan

It was never about returning abortion decisions to
the states, as Kavanaugh wrote in his Dobbs opinion.

observers knew that Kavanaugh’s statement wasn’t true then

The next chapter, as we saw play out Friday, involves
using whatever legal tools are available to stop abortions.

The Trump judge’s opinion is full of anti-abortion rhetoric that’s in
lockstep with the fetal personhood movement — which promotes the
idea that a fetus has the same rights as a person, thus making abortion murder.

https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white...wade-rcna78944

Alabama Supreme Court ruled Friday that frozen embryos
are people and someone can be held liable for destroying them.

At issue in this case was whether someone who mistakenly dropped
frozen embryos could be held liable in a wrongful-death lawsuit.

The fact that the court’s decision included specific references to the Christian Bible
— in a country in which the government is supposed to be neutral on matters of faith
— made it that much more controversial.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-...ers-rcna139541

I suppose alabama is anti woke , anti neutral gender etc too ?

So they probably enforce the notion that human is necessarily solely a man or woman and yet they define embryo with no sex development a human .

The sex of a human being is determined by his 23th chromosome. That is already in place in an embryo

missing the entire point as usual.
but to be technical it doesnt help u and the subject i cited because :


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4470128/

so the concept of choosing identity through only the sex u are given is wrong since we all were a woman to begin with if we think your definition from the embryo stand .....

So choosing between a male of female is just a function of time and its up to the individual to choose what time frame he wishes to be identify with right ?

We are one step away from outlawing masturbation.

the heritage foundation is coming after recreational sex. which is just hilariously out of touch, and i absolutely hope they swing their muscle around to make some dumb maga candidates say something about it.