Prison reform, bail, incarceration (formerly "Kyle Rittenhouse trial" thread) - Page 10 - Politics and Society -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

Can a jury find second-degree as a lesser-included charge to first degree reckless homicide? Or is it first-degree-or-nothing as far as this jury is concerned?

I watched the proceedings live today. The whole day was spent on discussing jury instructions and much of the debate was centred on which lesser includeds would be instructed and which wouldn't. The judge even had a colloquy with Rittenhouse at the end to make sure he understood which lesser includeds would be instructed and that he could override his lawyers on that decision if he so chose. It seems that the defendant/defence has the final say and can choose that only the charged offences are instructed; I did not know this before.

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11-12-2021 , 04:30 PM

#227

Howard Treesong

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Originally Posted by 5 south

I hate these morons that like to play army and take weapons to protests. They were doing it all that summer and was just a matter of time before someone got shot. Nothing good is coming out of it.
That being said, don't see how anyone could expect him to get done in for murder here.

Grosskreutz also took a weapon to a protest. Where is the vigilante hate on him?

As I've noted, I think Rittenhouse is an ass for taking a rifle to a protest. So too Grosskreutz. My read of the evidence is that Rittenhouse genuinely sought to avoid confrontation. Not so Grosskreutz, although as I say, I don't think Grosskreutz was actually trying to kill Rittenhouse.

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11-12-2021 , 04:34 PM

#228

Howard Treesong

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Originally Posted by d2_e4

Wow, really interesting, thank you for that post. That's a really tough decision for the defense. I'm guessing the defense thinks they're ahead -- and if so, they may want to gamble on putting only first-degree to the jury. How the hell do you make that kind of EV assessment if you're Rittenhouse? If you gamble on first-degree and lose, you're in jail forever. If you let instructions go to the jury on lesser charges, you greatly increase your chance of jail time but you're likely to get out when you still have much of your life in front of you.

Sometimes I'm glad I just litigate over zeros in some company's bank account.

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11-12-2021 , 04:35 PM

#229

Slighted

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Originally Posted by Howard Treesong

you dont "genuinely sought to avoid confrontation" by intentionally seeking out a protest that has nothing to do with you and taking an assault rifle to harass the protestors. lol.

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11-12-2021 , 04:37 PM

#230

Cuepee

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Originally Posted by Howard Treesong

Nor am I, although I'm sure I billed twenty hours on a criminal case in around 1992. My understanding is that defendants in self-defense cases testify much more often than defendants who don't raise that defense. Here, I think it is important for Rittenhouse to tie together what he saw and felt that night.....

I watch a litany of legal talking heads on shows as Rococo has heard too often.

I think I have heard at least 10 thus far on this case all of whom say it is highly unusual (some used more extreme wording) to see someone like Rittenhouse testify in a case like this unless they feel the Prosecution has made a really strong case prior and feel they need to take a big risk.

I have yet to see a single one suggest it is common or expected or usual but one did say the exception might be if when they did their own mock trial with him he was always able to avoid any risk and came off extraordinarily well.

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11-12-2021 , 04:43 PM

#231

d2_e4

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Originally Posted by Howard Treesong

The judge explained exactly that calculus to Rittenhouse during the colloquy.

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11-12-2021 , 04:43 PM

#232

Howard Treesong

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Originally Posted by DonkJr

The prosecutor did things during his cross-examination of the defendant that would be an automatic mistrial in most cases:

(1) He commented on the defendant remaining silent.

(2) He attempted to go into topics that were explicitly excluded by the judge pretrial. Specifically he attempted to get into propensity evidence which is only allowed in very specific instances and was disallowed in this case.

(1) is absolutely a serious error. (2) is a closer question. Binger seems a bit light on the comprehension side and a bit heavy on the aggression side.

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11-12-2021 , 04:48 PM

#233

Rococo

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Originally Posted by Cuepee

I have yet to see a single one suggest it is common or expected or usual but one did say the exception might be if when they did their own mock trial with him he was always able to avoid any risk and came off extraordinarily well.

Defense counsel almost certainly did one or more mock trials here. I did some quick research, and it is indeed more common for defendants to testify in cases where self defense is the main issue. "More common" of course does not mean "common." The right answer always depends on context.

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11-12-2021 , 04:49 PM

#234

Howard Treesong

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Originally Posted by RFlushDiamonds

(not a convicted murderer imo, unless the Rosenbaum shooting isn't seen as sd. Which is the only one I think there will be a debate on in the jury room)

I agree. One side of this: Rosenbaum was an aggro psycho dickhead that night, threatening people, shouting, and is horribly unsympathetic. Plus people on the jury may well have looked at pretrial publicity showing that Rosenbaum is a pedo.

Other side: Rosenbaum never actually hit Rittenhouse or attacked him directly. Grabbing a gun is a bit different than either.

Plus: there's no direct video of Rosenbaum/Rittenhouse, unlike Huber and Grosskreutz.

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11-12-2021 , 04:51 PM

#235

Rococo

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To my considerable shock, this thread hasn't been a disaster. Other than "Rittenhouse is a hero," most takes have been factual and reasonable.

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11-12-2021 , 05:08 PM

#236

5 south

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Originally Posted by Howard Treesong

Yeah, he's an idiot too. I have very little sympathy for the "victims". You see a moron freedumb lover with an AR just keep your distance, don't go threatening him and then chasing him down and try to grab his gun. And JFC, don't point a gun at said moron that has already shot two people if you're not sure you can shoot him 1st and definitely don't if you're not even prepared to shoot him.
I'm guessing Grossky ain't carrying anymore. Play stupid games...

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11-12-2021 , 05:16 PM

#237

Howard Treesong

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Originally Posted by 5 south

Grosskreutz was quite composed and rational on the stand, and struck me as being a bright enough guy -- although from his history, an ideological extremist that is largely a left-wing analog to Rittenhouse.

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11-12-2021 , 05:25 PM

#238

PokerPlayingGamble

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Originally Posted by Howard Treesong

He also lied through his teeth throughout his testimony.

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11-12-2021 , 05:27 PM

#239

PokerPlayingGamble

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Originally Posted by Rococo

To my considerable shock, this thread hasn't been a disaster. Other than "Rittenhouse is a hero," most takes have been factual and reasonable.

Rittenhouse is a hero. He defended his community against anarchists and communists who wanted to destroy it. It's not exactly a coincidence that the people he shot down had heinous felony records. They were the scum of the earth, who went to Kenosha to burn it to the ground. Just because you are too much of a coward to ever imagine defending your community from communists and anarchists that want to destroy does not mean you should demean Rittenhouse.

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11-12-2021 , 05:31 PM

#240

nutella virus

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Rittenhouse hero, others scum of the earth. Just tell me about your plo coaching ffs

All ik about you is you're the single worst poster in the Canada thread and complained in the online forum about not having a credit card or utility bill in your name to cash out. From the Canada thread don't know what the term socialist or communist really means and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you still live at home and would need your mom to drive you across provincial lines to shoot some red menace

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11-12-2021 , 05:33 PM

#241

5 south

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Originally Posted by Howard Treesong

He pulled a gun on someone. He's lucky to be alive and I'm sure is counting his blessings.

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11-12-2021 , 05:33 PM

#242

Slighted

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it's rare-ish (or at least it used to be) to see a crazy like this get to 4k posts...

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11-12-2021 , 05:36 PM

#243

d2_e4

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Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble

Me after reading this post:

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11-12-2021 , 05:38 PM

#244

d2_e4

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rococo

To my considerable shock, this thread hasn't been a disaster. Other than "Rittenhouse is a hero," most takes have been factual and reasonable.

And PPG is the second most prolific poster in it. I guess it speaks to the quality of the others.

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11-12-2021 , 05:43 PM

#245

Rococo

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Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble

Just because you are too much of a coward to ever imagine defending your community from communists and anarchists that want to destroy does not mean you should demean Rittenhouse.

I am demeaning Rittenhouse and putting my own cowardice on display by refusing to acknowledge that Rittenhouse is a hero?

That's an unusual take. Can you elaborate?

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11-12-2021 , 05:43 PM

#246

Howard Treesong

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Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble

This kind of post isn't useful or productive. It will not convince literally anyone of literally anything, and instead is a rhetorical policy vomit. There are actually interesting issues to discuss here.

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11-12-2021 , 05:44 PM

#247

Victor

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Originally Posted by Howard Treesong

Rittenhouse is a fascist bootlicker. Grosskruetz wants people to have health care and the racist cops to not kill people. ya so extreme. totally the same thing.

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11-12-2021 , 05:47 PM

#248

Howard Treesong

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Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble

He also lied through his teeth throughout his testimony.

I can't make that assessment and neither can you. What can fairly be said is that Grosskreutz lied to the police about the night in question by omitting the fact that he was pointing a gun at Rittenhouse when he got shot. It's also somewhat damning that he withheld some amount of footage from his phone and apparently never disclosed that to the police -- and as best I can tell, the prosecutors were involved in that decision. IMO those facts are collateral but also damning.

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11-12-2021 , 05:47 PM

#249

Howard Treesong

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Originally Posted by Victor

Rittenhouse is a fascist bootlicker. Grosskruetz wants people to have health care and the racist cops to not kill people. ya so extreme. totally the same thing.

Into the block bin with you!

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11-12-2021 , 05:50 PM

#250

d2_e4

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Victor is actually pretty much the left-wing analogue to Rittenhouse. Wait until you hear his takes on Stalin and Mao. They were nice guys, just wanted everyone to have healthcare.

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