This is false, I'm not okay with Bernie being cheated, but yes, I do deny that there was significant vote tampering with the vote counts either this year or 2016.

I'm not trying to persuade you that Biden is better than Bernie. The primary election is already over and Biden won, so it doesn't really matter which is better. I don't really see much point in arguing about this with you since we start with very different priors.

I did vote for Biden over Bernie. I think I've talked about why in another thread, but it isn't that exciting. I'm voting for Biden for similiar reasons to why I voted for Hillary. I think it is a mistake to promise your supporters policies that have no chance of passing, leading to a loss of trust between party leadership and voters. I think M4A has no chance of passing, and I'm pretty skeptical of the rest of Bernie's maximalistic policy platform having much chance to pass either. The GOP leadership lying to their voters about repealing Obamacare for 6 years when that wasn't a real possibility is an example of how this can happen, leading to a loss of control of their party and the nomination of Trump as party leader.

I'm also opposed to many of Bernie's policies - eg I don't favor free college, nor do I favor his wealth tax plan, nor banning fracking, national rent control, national $15 minimum wage, etc. In general I'm an incrementalist about social and political change.

I also opposed Bernie because I don't think he's a committed, loyal Democrat. He's only willing to join the party in order to run for president. I think this significantly lowers the accountability and check the party would have over him as president.

As for Biden, meh. I don't think he's a very good candidate. Like Bernie and Trump, he's too old. I don't think he's a very good campaigner or speaker. However, I also recognize that the electability argument for Biden is that he'll appeal to white working class voters in swing states (which isn't my demographic profile), so I don't place much weight on my subjective impression of him as a politician.

My best argument for Biden as president: this is obviously a time of division in the Democratic party. In times like this it can useful to have a somewhat weak transactional leader who can bring different segments of the party together rather than a stronger leader who will try to enforce their own vision on the rest of the party. This really is something that Biden seems to be good at, both given his decades of experience in the Senate and in the WH, his ability to get ideological and partisan enemies to like him and say very nice things about him. Biden has to me always been ideologically malleably, instinctively seeking out the center of the party rather than his own ideological passions, which is why he was able to be an effective VP even after so long in the Senate.

I know! It should be meaningful to you. Why is it that half of the voters of the left-wing party don't identify as left-wing? Why do you think Bernie Sanders keeps losing? Don't you think these things might be connected? You want to blame the DNC, but actually it is pretty easily explained by just noticing that most of the party's voters are not very left-wing.

I'm not surprised that Bernie lost. He's a very left-wing candidate in a party where most supporters identify as either moderate or conservative. To me, this indicates that establishment politicians like Biden, Hillary, and Obama are closer to the center of the Democratic party ideologically than a far-left candidate like Sanders. Thus, insofar as people vote on ideology, I would expect more of them to support the mainstream candidates over Sanders.

Insofar as people vote on trust or identity, etc. I still don't see why they would favor Sanders. The most popular Democratic politician (who would win easily if he could run in the primary) alive is establishment politician Barack Obama. How do you run against the establishment if most people like the establishment?

Bernie supporters clearly think he was robbed. But the evidence mostly just shows an ordinary story of a politician not getting enough support.
I do think Bernie Sanders got a big advantage in 2016 from Hillary and other establishment politicians pressuring people to not run, but I don't think that really counts as "rigging" or cheating in his favor. Politicians have always done this, it is just a normal part of politics. Donna Brazile is dishonest and gave some debate questions to Hillary Clinton. But neither the 2016 or 2020 Democratic primary elections were rigged, nor did the DNC cheat in favor of establishment in significant ways.

You can't even countenance the possibility that the left can turn against democracy? Given the history of socialism, I'll disagree. I mean, I don't know, scroll up a bit and you'll see that ITT victor isn't super jazzed about democracy.

I'm sure many of them would.

Cheers, I hope you are doing well these days.

Yeah, I know, but the joke was too good to pass up.

Assuming that aware/vegetable divide then, he's capable of making an arrangement like that now if he wants. Rs won't challenge because they'd have to admit they lied and cooked up a phony campaign about his mental state, and even if he doesn't get worse, 75%+ of the country will believe it by the time November rolls around.

I'm talking about elections between Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden/Hillary Clinton.

No they wanted Warren

I don't really know what Victor's views are, but I do see you're signature at the bottom of his name every so often. I will say that I'm not a fan of violence as a means to assume power or communism as a form of government. Communism literally tore my country of Korea in two, so forgive me if I get a little bit heated when it's brought up in any way associated with what I stand for. And it could be nothing further than what Bernie represents. Sure he didn't say Bernie supporters are communists, but it has the same affect. How many are realistically going to abandon democracy and turn to communism to even bother to have that thought, write it down and post it? Whatever, I've made my point, I'll try not to be so dismissive to OrP. Just know he literally came in here to argue about the same **** we've been arguing about for the last couple weeks in the other thread. It's a new game now and Biden has to step up or bow out, and I think that's true even if I knew the outcome were to be Cuomo and not Bernie in the end.

Please point me to where I am getting "pissed" at someone for not sharing my passion for Bernie. More likely I was responding to an attack or to someone trying to alter my position on something.

'where's joe biden': probably tripping over his most recent verbal faux pas;

'where's bernie': probably choking over being labeled a commie/socialist, while his fellow politicos are putting together a $2-trillion 'stimulus', which going to give a massive amount of $$'s to corporations, who bought back stock, paid their execs, paid dividends, while paying 0% to 11% fed-tax, along with repatriated foreign profits;
i have no idea how much of the $2-trillion is going to help the unemployed, and small business, but the $500-billion 'slush-fund' has to be only part of what is going to the corporations;
**delta paid 0% in 2018;
**boeing says they don't want a loan, if it means the feds take an equity stake; they got $15-billion in the bank and will go find financing on their own;

What do you mean? He’s right here. He always has been and always will be with and for the people.

That's an extremely fraudulent description. Democracy is obv the preference. But it doesn't exist in this country.

It was rigged for Hillary to win from the beginning. She ran against a Socialist, a Republican (Democrat in name only), a former Republican, and the former Mayor of Baltimore, ffs.

At least in 2020 the Democrats let the people decide. Sure the outcome will be even worse than in 2016, but at least there was some semblance of a democratic process.

let the people decide with shady backroom deals, constant coordinated media attacks, shuttering thousands of voting precincts, forcing voters in many states to vote in public for hours during a ****ing contagious pandemic, and with exit polls drastically different than results.

democracy!

lol ladies and gentlemen the modern "liberal" Democrat right here. support all the Republican policies just dont act racist.

They are in no rush to do anything because of what? What did Joe say recently? Costs.

I wonder if Joe now suddenly doesn’t want to debate anymore because his conservative cost ideology has recently blow up?

Nope, it wasn't rigged. Hillary Clinton looked like a very strong candidate in 2016 so she was able to chill the field and most serious contenders decided not to run against her. This is not unusual - it also happened in 2000 because Gore was such a heavy favorite to win the nomination. Many Bernie supporters, who aren't members of a party or know how it works don't realize that this is just a normal part of electioneering and so think this is somehow nefarious. When multiple politicians want to run for the same office, they will often negotiate with each other for favors in return for not running. This is an obvious rational risk mitigation strategy and so something parties should allow or even encourage in many cases.

The people decided in 2016 as well. Bernie & O'Malley were both serious candidates with traditional qualifications to be president.

I'm not a progressive or a member of the left. I've been pretty explicit about that on this forum. I do call myself as a liberal, but I mean this more in its philosophical sense than in the sense it is typically meant in American politics.

It's just a wild lie to say that not favoring all of Bernie's policies = supporting all GOP policies.

it's not personal. people who post like you are unbalanced nut jobs. you want to say well thats your opinion. no. objectively it's true and everybody here agrees with me. it is impossible to howl about fake news and support Trump and not be an unbalanced nut job. you cant dunk from the FT without being a great athlete. Once I see that, I can say ok, this guy is a great athlete. Once you say what you say, that is enough to define you. you probably know it too. that creepy feeling you have about yourself. listen to that. it is trying to tell you something.

Cheers

Good.

As far as I can tell, on your understanding of democracy, if a non-socialist wins an election then it wasn't truly democratic, so I'm not that bothered by this claim.

The Dems have def given up on democracy. Rather stupidly, they confessed to it when they called themselves " The Resistance" !

They want to reform the supreme court and get rid of the electoral college. They want upheaval, every time they lose. And they rig it against Bernie.
Sorry, but you can't rig it against Bernie, and call it democracy.

There's really no point in debating it. It's undeniable.

You (falsely) claim you didn't make a personal attack, then finish it by saying I'm creepy! Amazing stuff.
Smearing people you disagree with isn't good.

Saying the media treated Trump and Biden's cognitive skills differently, isn't supporting Trump, MAGA , creepy etc.

Fake news - Would you like a list of proven fake news stories?

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I'll link a list of stories if you want, and will obviously accept any apology for personal attacks if you can summon any internal decency. Apart from that, let's leave it there, as you obviously don't have anything to say other than peurile insults.
Peace out

Supreme Court nominations get voted on by the Senate which is not a one person one vote institution (for instance, I live in San Diego County but not in the city of San Diego. About as many people as live in Nebraska live there. Nebraska the 36th or 38th largest state gets 2 senators. San Diego County x city of San Diego doesn’t.) The Electoral College has kept the top vote getter from becoming president in 2 of the last 5 elections. Wanting to reform the selection of the Supreme Court or getting rid of the electoral college are bad examples of undemocratic tendencies.

Not sure if you’re trolling, making a point over my head, stupid or ignorant. In any event, you’re welcome!

Are you aware that having a changeable government is part of democracy?