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Originally Posted by RFlushDiamonds
1. So you're okay with Bernie being cheated by the DNC and you deny they tamper with the vote counts. Got it.
This is false, I'm not okay with Bernie being cheated, but yes, I do deny that there was significant vote tampering with the vote counts either this year or 2016.
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2. Most voters don't even know who's running. I don't think you have an opinion on any candidate. If you're really a Democratic voter you just do as your told on the day they tell you. Obviously. If you liked Biden you would be arguing with us about why he's better than Bernie. But you're just arguing that the DNC is smart and honest. That's not convincing but whatever
I'm not trying to persuade you that Biden is better than Bernie. The primary election is already over and Biden won, so it doesn't really matter which is better. I don't really see much point in arguing about this with you since we start with very different priors.
I did vote for Biden over Bernie. I think I've talked about why in another thread, but it isn't that exciting. I'm voting for Biden for similiar reasons to why I voted for Hillary. I think it is a mistake to promise your supporters policies that have no chance of passing, leading to a loss of trust between party leadership and voters. I think M4A has no chance of passing, and I'm pretty skeptical of the rest of Bernie's maximalistic policy platform having much chance to pass either. The GOP leadership lying to their voters about repealing Obamacare for 6 years when that wasn't a real possibility is an example of how this can happen, leading to a loss of control of their party and the nomination of Trump as party leader.
I'm also opposed to many of Bernie's policies - eg I don't favor free college, nor do I favor his wealth tax plan, nor banning fracking, national rent control, national $15 minimum wage, etc. In general I'm an incrementalist about social and political change.
I also opposed Bernie because I don't think he's a committed, loyal Democrat. He's only willing to join the party in order to run for president. I think this significantly lowers the accountability and check the party would have over him as president.
As for Biden, meh. I don't think he's a very good candidate. Like Bernie and Trump, he's too old. I don't think he's a very good campaigner or speaker. However, I also recognize that the electability argument for Biden is that he'll appeal to white working class voters in swing states (which isn't my demographic profile), so I don't place much weight on my subjective impression of him as a politician.
My best argument for Biden as president: this is obviously a time of division in the Democratic party. In times like this it can useful to have a somewhat weak transactional leader who can bring different segments of the party together rather than a stronger leader who will try to enforce their own vision on the rest of the party. This really is something that Biden seems to be good at, both given his decades of experience in the Senate and in the WH, his ability to get ideological and partisan enemies to like him and say very nice things about him. Biden has to me always been ideologically malleably, instinctively seeking out the center of the party rather than his own ideological passions, which is why he was able to be an effective VP even after so long in the Senate.
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3. I have no idea what that chart even means. You're saying because people self identify as moderates they won't vote for Bernie ? There's no mention of policies or issues at all, just a random categories to place yourself in.
Why would conservative or very conservative voters even be in the 'left wing' party ? It's not very meaningful to me.
I know! It should be meaningful to you. Why is it that half of the voters of the left-wing party don't identify as left-wing? Why do you think Bernie Sanders keeps losing? Don't you think these things might be connected? You want to blame the DNC, but actually it is pretty easily explained by just noticing that most of the party's voters are not very left-wing.
I'm not surprised that Bernie lost. He's a very left-wing candidate in a party where most supporters identify as either moderate or conservative. To me, this indicates that establishment politicians like Biden, Hillary, and Obama are closer to the center of the Democratic party ideologically than a far-left candidate like Sanders. Thus, insofar as people vote on ideology, I would expect more of them to support the mainstream candidates over Sanders.
Insofar as people vote on trust or identity, etc. I still don't see why they would favor Sanders. The most popular Democratic politician (who would win easily if he could run in the primary) alive is establishment politician Barack Obama. How do you run against the establishment if most people like the establishment?
Bernie supporters clearly think he was robbed. But the evidence mostly just shows an ordinary story of a politician not getting enough support.
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4. You admit in your first paragraph that it's rigged and you don't care. The top tier of the economy is going to do fine with Trump or with a corporate Dem. They'll do fine with a progressive too of course, but it will cost them a few nickles. And they don't like that from what I can see.
I do think Bernie Sanders got a big advantage in 2016 from Hillary and other establishment politicians pressuring people to not run, but I don't think that really counts as "rigging" or cheating in his favor. Politicians have always done this, it is just a normal part of politics. Donna Brazile is dishonest and gave some debate questions to Hillary Clinton. But neither the 2016 or 2020 Democratic primary elections were rigged, nor did the DNC cheat in favor of establishment in significant ways.