Communism is better than the awful society we have right now

I've never worked for the DNC, but I am a past and present member of several Democratic clubs and know many local party officials and a couple DNC members.

I don't mind seeming like a supporter of the Democratic Party establishment - I am, and Bernie running against the current party leadership is one of the reasons I didn't support him in the primary. I think Pelosi and her team (especially Clyburn) are good at running the House. I think Obama was a good president and politician. I was satisfied with most of the politicians running for president (Biden and Bernie being two of my least favorite).

Nah, you just don't remember the 2016 primary very well. It wasn't rigged, but rather was a fair and free election which Hillary won fairly easily. It certainly didn't prove that "democracy is a joke."

Yea it does, we would raise all hell. The other nominee would be DOA.

How would communism be better than the society that we have right now?

Yea, literally a proud shill, getting skewered on both ends like a pig and loving it.

1) If A then B
2) Therefore B

3) If the left rejects democracy, then more of the left will become communists.
4) More of the left will become communists.

These are invalid arguments. In propositional logic, it doesn't follow from a true conditional statement that the antecedent is true unless the consequent is also true. Furthermore, since I've specifically claimed that the antecedent claim is false, you have no grounds for thinking that my view is that Bernie supporters either are or are likely to become communists.

I'm rejecting the idea that many would become communists under your or any condition. I never rejected that a condition existed dumb ass.

It's so weird how as you lose election after election you get your kicks from talking about how the people that are winning are the real losers. Okay. I guess I'll take the loss.

its pretty weird to be proud of exploitation theft and death but hey, you do you.

I'm sorry, who's POTUS again? Yea, stfu shill.

Here's a conditional statement... If the DNC and Original Position gave up on democracy, they'd be the DNC and Original Position. This has been conditional statements, with wiiz.

1. So you're okay with Bernie being cheated by the DNC and you deny they tamper with the vote counts. Got it.

2. Most voters don't even know who's running. I don't think you have an opinion on any candidate. If you're really a Democratic voter you just do as your told on the day they tell you. Obviously. If you liked Biden you would be arguing with us about why he's better than Bernie. But you're just arguing that the DNC is smart and honest. That's not convincing but whatever

3. I have no idea what that chart even means. You're saying because people self identify as moderates they won't vote for Bernie ? There's no mention of policies or issues at all, just a random categories to place yourself in.
Why would conservative or very conservative voters even be in the 'left wing' party ? It's not very meaningful to me.

4. You admit in your first paragraph that it's rigged and you don't care. The top tier of the economy is going to do fine with Trump or with a corporate Dem. They'll do fine with a progressive too of course, but it will cost them a few nickles. And they don't like that from what I can see.

Maybe you all would, and maybe the other nominee would be, but it doesn't follow that the nominee would be Bernie. I know you love the idea that Bernie supporters can get him over the line by threatening to revolt (or actually revolting), but it won't work.

Okay. So if the American left rejected democracy what would they turn to?

I am always excited to see OrP posting. I feel like if you don't enjoy that, you just have no appreciation for good posting. It may be literally the only single thing JV and I ever agree about.

That's not to say that you ought to agree with him on everything. It's more to say that I don't know anyone on 2+2 that I'd rather have a disagreement with, because every time we do disagree my positions are improved by the quality of his challenges to them.

FWIW, I'm not sure if you consider me a shill or a Trump voter or whatever, but I think I agree with everything OrP has said about Democratic voter preferences and the validity of the primary results as a representation of them.

If we wanted to reject democracy we could just stay in the Democratic party since they're not very big on it.

It's an absurd premise and counterfactual. We are social democrats, we do not oppose democracy or capitalism and we are mother ****ing Americans. We want health care for everyone like every other wealthy nation, and clean air and water for our grandchildren; so don't group communist and Bernie supporters in the same sentence again mother ****er.

What would corporate democrats turn into if they rejected democracy, fascists?

Now how does that make sense?

Think about it for a second (assuming you have all your mental faculties).

Wait, “winning” is Donald’s thing. How did you get mixed up in it?

The best argument you have for Joe Biden is that it appears like he probably “won”? It is only March, still. Isn’t it a bit early to celebrate? All of his opponents haven’t even conceded yet.

I'm glad your panties start to tingle when you see OrP post, and I've been cordial with him up till now, but I get pissed off when he brings up inciting violence to assume power and associates social democracy with communism, with or without counterfactual conditional reasoning.

And I don't think I've ever called someone a Trump voter for you to suspect me of thinking you're one, maybe you're confusing me with the side you're on, because plenty of you guys have said that by not voting Biden, we're supporting Trump. And it's not like I remember exactly everything OrP has said over the past few weeks what with the global crisis and all, which he doesn't seem to care enough to post about, but since you've now endorsed him, should I consider all further posts that OrP to also be the views of WN? Or are there any views of his you disagree with?

I don't think wiiziwiig has ever pretended to care about good posting in any sort of abstract sense. He judges other posters solely by whether they agree with his views about Bernie and the Democratic establishment.

When did WN say that he was perfectly aligned with OrP about everything?

I don't think he was trying to "associate" the two in the way you seem to think. I think he was just reacting to Victor. Have you been reading victor's posts? The ones about how communism is better than capitalism, and we don't have a legitimate democracy and all that? I think you're inferring more from OrP's reaction to that than he intends. Victor doesn't represent the entirety of progressives, by any stretch. So I don't think the conditional is worth arguing about too much because I agree with you that it's not likely at all, but I would read it as sarcasm motivated by victor's attitude.

I didn't mean to imply that you had. It was Rflushdiamonds. Sorry, I should have just left it at "shill."


I think "support" is too strong, but fwiw if in November it's Biden vs. Trump and you don't vote for Biden then you are definitely contributing in some very small way towards Trump winning. I don't think you are obligated therefore to vote for Trump, but I do think it would be an enormous mistake not to vote for Biden over Trump. Note that I would much prefer that it was Sanders vs. Trump. But nevertheless...


Well, he doesn't like Bernie as much as I do. I'm not really sure why you would take my post to mean that you should always assume I agree with OrP, but you probably wouldn't do too badly if you did. But I wasn't chiming in because I always agree with him or think you should always agree with him. I chimed in because it just seems silly for people to dismiss him in the ways that you and rflushdiamonds are doing. So it's not that I always agree with him, but I always respect him as someone to take seriously. That's my endorsement.

Incapacitated doesn't mean you're a vegetable.

A "good post" can still be bs. So you're saying that I am more likely to engage in debate with someone with opposing views on a political forum? **** me, amirite? If someone's acting in good faith and consistent in their views, I usually don't have a problem with them.

Of course. A well-organized, thoughtful post can still be wrong.

This is true of everyone. I never suggested anything to the contrary.

This is completely false. You have a huge problem with anyone who does not share your passion for Bernie and your loathing of every other Democratic candidate for president. A good chunk of the people you get pissed at (including WN) wanted Bernie to be the nominee. And 80-90% of the people you get pissed at would have voted Bernie in the general if he had been the nominee.