I don't typically read that thread and presume those 50 posts were as off topic as you suggest. However, now that we have low content thread, I generally think it is better to move lighthearted banter into a LC thread than delete it, to present a culture that it is ok to have more casual conversations just they need to be in the right place.

Ah the joys of being a literalist (precisely when the left says something). While that shorthand "Don't Say Gay" is very common across media platforms (I checked for National Post which I presume you like best in Canada uses the same phrase), I think everyone understands it is in reference to classroom instruction not the word generally. Calling this "disinformation" is so vague as to make the term useless.

I agree, and considered that. Unfortunately, in this case most of the posts were anything but light banter. They became increasingly filled with personal insults. That's why I decided to delete them. But your point is well taken. Thanks

Ha! This kind of snark is right up my alley so if you are happy with retorts like this then I'm a lot less worried!

I agree with all of this.

However, as a co-participant in the above-mentioned 50-post trainwreck derail, deleting it completely was the right call. Whatever entertainment value it ever had was gone after about 20 posts.

The idea that people were coming to the 2p2 politics forum for medical advise and that the things said here could potentially lead to adverse outcomes for people, has always been risible.

Hopefully now that it's almost 2023 and that we're years into the pandemic, this policy can be revisited.

People come here for poker advice, dating advice, cooking advice, investment advice, computer and software advice, real estate advice, etc.

Much of that advice is bad but people still seek it.

I'm mildy entertained how some people are chomping at the bit that this "just be nice" might mean say whatever you want as long as you're polite about it. Ofc it won't mean that but they're still super excited at the prospect of being freelance bigots as long as they're nice

Adotable is a bit OTT but definitely nice.

Any move towards looking for the better parts of people or some balanced view rather than the tradiitonal in these parts, obsessive characturered focus on the absolute worst about them would be a big step forward imo

A lot less 'judging' would be even better.

Sometimes, the argument and the arguer can't be separated. This is the sort of pseudo-neutral framework that is easily used by those who support some combination of white. male, Christian, and heterosexual as the default to criticize any advocacy of an agenda associated with some minority group as a personal attack, anti-white or anti-Christian or some such nonsense. That's how we get ridiculous framings like the so-called "war on Christmas".

Could you break this down just a bit more? I'm intrigued.

I'm still trying to come up with a name for my forthcoming Youtube channel. I'm going to seriously consider "Freelance Bigot". Thanks for the idea.

Well said.

Unfortunately, your nuanced approach will almost certainly be viewed (incorrectly) as enabling all manner of folks ranging from Neo-Nazis to Black Separatists to Zionists.

The good news, presumably, is that such a "pseudo-neutral" framework couldn't be easily used to good effect by some combination of non-white, female, atheist lesbians?

I think your concern is legitimate, but suggesting that such a tactic is only used by extremists on the Christian Right is ridiculous.

You realize that bigotry exists outside of this forum, right?
If a bigot can't post in this forum, he is still going to be a bigot in the real world, where it could possibly matter. Someone expressing bigotry in this forum hurts no one, as far as I can tell. It just brings the bigotry out in the open. Would you prefer there be secret bigotry or open bigotry? Which do you think is more dangerous?

There's has to be a cut off on what is allowed and PC is really good but ironically it's those who concentrate on the worst aspects of humanity who are most enabling the extremists and populists.

They dont realise it but they end up arguing for fascism because democracy can't work if such an overwhelming number of people are unnaceptable - why whould you even want democracy when so many people are so deplorable. There is a battle between the 'you **** one goat' mentality and the 'don't judge someone by their worst moment' mentality

Couple of things. It's sort of weird and I haven't seen it elsewhere, but this habit of openly talking **** about other posters and telling trolling war stories about them needs to stop. It's like talking about a live poker player while he is still sitting right there at the table. That's not nice.

Second, I'm not sure why some are getting this idea that all the guidelines about what can and can't be discussed are going away. To the contrary all current guidelines remain in effect. I am in the process of clarifying the gray areas as to what crosses the line and what doesn't. But no matter how nicely you phrase it we won't be talking about a secret cabal of politicians drinking baby blood or a host of other CT or bigoted stuff.

I appreciate everyone's feedback as I come on board. Please keep it coming.

It's the whole paradox of tolerance of thing. If everyone is a fascist then you yourself must become a fascist to defeat them.

It is extraordinarily wierd. I wish you really good luck.

Deleted some posts in the climate change forum. Discussion of the effect of rising oceans on the population is fine. Once you start to discuss what happens after the people die, that's better suited for the religion forum. Thanks

Admonition noted.

Thank you for the clarification.

I try to be open about my bigotry.

Got me in trouble in this forum in the past.

This is a good example of an earlier point about tensions when you as a complete noob with zero connection to the community come in to start modding a community with years of relationships and connections. I don't know which specific situations you are talking about, but a lot of us know each other very well and past threads and debates influence how we understand and respond to each other. It's not like we can or should forget all the things we know about somebody. This can be a good thing! One of the strengths of this community is that you can build these long histories understanding each other very well as opposed to so many other places on the internet like twitter or whatever that are sort of memory-less as your debates are with new randoms time after time. Sure, this can be contentious too - politics IS contentious after all - but I think you should just....slow down. Gain some genuine buy-in as a bonafide member of the community who wants to talk about politics, lead by example, and over time you can force the changes you think are needed by moderator fiat if it really comes to it, but don't lead with that.

No one expects that a bigot would stop being a bigot due to a conversation in this forum. If they are a bigot in the real world, they're a bigot, period. (There are non bigot trolls who play bigots on the internet just to get a rise out of people, but that's a different issue). Does allowing bigots to post their bigotry on our forum cause any harm? Yes, it does. First, it does harm to the forum itself. We want to build the number of people who come to our forum because it is a place where they can discuss and debate with other members. We want that experience to be enjoyable for them. Part of that enjoyment is engaging in debates with people who hold different views from their own, in an environment where everyone is treated with courtesy and respect. Logging onto the forum should be a fun activity that members will want to repeat often.

But the forum cannot be welcoming to everyone if we allow bigoted, hateful speech targeting various groups to be posted. No one can feel welcome if there are posts questioning whether they are even considered equal to other humans, or fall into some designated inferior group unworthy of the same rights and privileges as the majority group. And no non bigoted person, whether a member of a majority or minority group, would want to read that vile trash during their entertainment time. So allowing various forms of bigoted hate speech would drive away the vast majority of people, leaving only a core of bigots reinforcing each other. This, in turn, would leave a forum that would never be acceptable to the company owners, who do not want their company associated with a gathering place for bigots. So the forum is killed. In simple terms, the small number of bigots would **** it up for the rest of us.

There is a secondary effect as well. Every media outlet that permits bigots to post their hate is another place where impressionable people can get exposed to their ****ed up ideas. Sure, there are a ton of dedicated websites that spew pure garbage in hopes of radicalizing people. But even on a primarily poker based website, there could be people, esp young people, who could wander over to our forum. If while here, they see bigoted posters attempting to justify and normalize their hateful beliefs, or providing links to other sources of bigoted propaganda, that could end up being enough of a veneer of respectability to cause them to delve deeper into the hate speech arena. Radicalization of young people doesn't happen overnight or from one info source. The greater the number of places they are exposed to these ideas, and the more mainstream the sources appear, the greater the chance of someone getting sucked into that world.

This is why we will always maintain guardrails, or a "left and right limit" on what topics will be allowed here. And we seek to have those limits set wide enough apart so that many points of view can be discussed. But as wide as the highway is built, we will insist that posters stay on the road. Bigotry, racism, conspiracy theories, and other wild claims unsupported by the evidence, have no place in this forum or on this site.

So is the secret bigot better than the open bigot? In regards to our forum, yes. We will not allow open bigotry to degrade our members experiences on the site. The fact is, no one wants to hear that hate **** except other bigots. And they have their own websites for that. (But you won't find links to them here )

Ps: if anyone has intentions of posting bigoted stuff to test the limits, I advise against it. Depending on what is posted, this type of posting may accelerate the disciplinary steps significantly. You may advance directly to go without a series of warnings and temp bans. If you are unsure whether certain topics are acceptable, please pm me first to discuss it.

All very well said.

It is not acceptable to have posters write posts about other posters such as "joe blow is a pompous, narcissistic ass..." or words to that effect. And that was the entire content of these posts. We don't have a thread titled "critique your fellow posters here". If your community is so tight, there should be no reason for such posts. You already know each others characteristics. And those posts are not seen by just the select few. They are open to anyone viewing the forum. They are rude and insulting to the member being ridiculed, serve no function other than to embarrass the poster, and will not be permitted.

Please do not think that my purpose or goal here is to ensure that everything continues to function exactly as it has been, and to avoid making changes because they may make a handful of posters uncomfortable. It isn't. I have gone out of my way to seek out and consider user inputs as I make changes. I appreciate that there is some "institutional knowledge" that I don't have. But OTOH, there are certain current behaviors that are unacceptable from my day one, so there is no point in my waiting a few weeks to pull those scabs off. My opinion on making gratuitous, derogatory comments about other members rather than addressing the actual thread topic at hand, will not change. So I will not be slowing down in areas like that. The sooner we get those areas cleaned up, the better.