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09-22-2023 , 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunyain
I think isolationism is a consistent and predictable component of populism. "Trumpism" is very much a populist movement (even if you think Trump himself is a false Messiah), hence isolationism.

As an aside, this is something I find amusing about the mainstream narrative surrounding "democracy" and "fascism." The narrative is that by opposing Trump we are trying to preserve "democracy" and fight "fascism." The truth is probably the opposite. The fascist elements of the state are combating the democratic populist movement that is Trumpism. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. True populist democracies invariably will produce bad outcomes.
You consistently conflate populism with democracy. Throughout history, there have been many antidemocratic authoritarians who surfed into power on a wave of popular fervor.

I agree that isolationism is often (although not always) a component of populism. I agree that Trumpism is a populist movement.
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09-22-2023 , 12:02 PM
Trump wasn’t remotely isolationist.
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09-22-2023 , 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc
That's just not true. The perception was always that the Republicans were the war party and the Democrats less so. We went through a ton of neocon presidents during our lifetimes and had relative peace during the Clinton years. It wasn't until Obama that their militarism starting showing itself again.
At various times, Clinton authorized military action in Somalia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Irag, Sudan, and Afghanistan. Some of those decisions appear justified in hindsight, others less so. None of those military actions was protracted, but I think that was more a function of the hand Clinton was dealt than evidence of a strong aversion to using military force.
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09-22-2023 , 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
Trump wasnít remotely isolationist.
He signed the updated NAFTA. He killed an Iranian general. Only made an effort to withdraw from Afghanistan at the end of his term, escalated the drone war.

He just conned people into thinking that and it's impressive how good a job he did on that one.
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09-22-2023 , 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
Trump wasnít remotely isolationist.
He was a weird mix. He was reckless and bellicose in certain ways and isolationist in other ways. I guess that's what you should expect from a guy who mainly just shot from the hip and didn't listen to advice.

In any case, his "America first" rhetoric definitely has fanned isolationist policy preferences within the GOP at this point. I really think that a decent chunk of GOP politicians would be willing to pull most of the military support for Ukraine, no matter what the consequences might be for Ukraine.
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09-22-2023 , 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
In any case, his "America first" rhetoric definitely has fanned isolationist policy preferences within the GOP at this point. I really think that a decent chunk of GOP politicians would be willing to pull most of the military support for Ukraine, no matter what the consequences might be for Ukraine.
Those same GOP politicians would be more than happy to provide military aid to Russia, it that was an option. They would scream and yell if anyone proposed cutting aid to Israel or Saudi Arabia. Multiple candidates in the last GOP primary debate floated the idea of declaring war on Mexico. The GOP isn't remotely isolationist by any good-faith metric. FFS, we only just extracted ourselves from the last 20-year military adventure the GOP sent us on.

Last edited by Trolly McTrollson; 09-22-2023 at 01:52 PM.
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09-22-2023 , 02:19 PM
I am not using the word "isolationist" as a proxy for "good" (or "bad").

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson
Those same GOP politicians would be more than happy to provide military aid to Russia, it that was an option.
Maybe a few would, but I think there has been a noticeable shift in the direction of "**** everyone except for USA #1."

Quote:
Multiple candidates in the last GOP primary debate floated the idea of declaring war on Mexico.
They definitely floated the idea of military strikes against the cartels.

Quote:
The GOP isn't remotely isolationist by any good-faith metric. FFS, we only just extracted ourselves from the last 20-year military adventure the GOP sent us on.
I obviously agree that the Bush era was not marked by isolationism. But I do think there is growing tolerance in the GOP for letting authoritarian regimes do pretty much whatever they want so long as it does not directly and immediately affect critical U.S. interests.
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09-22-2023 , 03:14 PM
"America First" doesn't mean America isolates itself, it just means America only acts in its own interests. Invading the Middle East to steal their oil is completely compatible with Trump's ideology.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-c...age-syrias-oil

Neither side has anything like a consistent isolationist attitude. Republicans dishonestly pretend to be against foreign intervention when the Dems do it and then turn around and engage even more aggressively when they are in power.
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09-22-2023 , 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
Do people think that a thread devoted to a general discussion of American foreign policy, especially as it relates to the projection of power overseas, would be worthwhile? If so, I'd be happy to start a thread this weekend. One of things that interests me at the moment is the rising GOP enthusiasm for American isolationism, which seems like one of the more complicated and significant developments in either party over the last twenty years.
GOP isn't isolationist tho. Hell they want to start a war with Mexico.
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09-22-2023 , 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunyain
I dont think this is accurate. As Rococo already said, Democrats have been consistently "militaristic." So too have been the center right establishment parts of the Republican Party. Trumpism really is the populist wild card.
Trump admin had some of the most insane and bloodthirsty neocons of the 21st century running foreign policy. Pompeo was SoS. John Bolton was a leader.
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09-22-2023 , 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor
Trump admin had some of the most insane and bloodthirsty neocons of the 21st century running foreign policy. Pompeo was SoS. John Bolton was a leader.
Yeah it was all a bait-and-switch played on his base as others have suggested

But tbf he did tell people that during his campaign with his constant warmongering against Iran.
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09-22-2023 , 08:32 PM
Maybe some Democrats would oppose it, but Biden has recently been more clearly explicit about his support for the de facto independence of Taiwan than has any other president in recent memory.
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09-22-2023 , 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
He was a weird mix. He was reckless and bellicose in certain ways and isolationist in other ways. I guess that's what you should expect from a guy who mainly just shot from the hip and didn't listen to advice.

In any case, his "America first" rhetoric definitely has fanned isolationist policy preferences within the GOP at this point. I really think that a decent chunk of GOP politicians would be willing to pull most of the military support for Ukraine, no matter what the consequences might be for Ukraine.
I actually was referring to Trumpism the populist movement as something distinct from Trump himself. Obviously he is the avatar of the MAGA movement, but the movement itself definitely has a life of its own beyond his own politics, including some far right wing isolationist tendencies that don't necessarily come from him (on top of antivax and anti-abortion).

As Trump himself doesn't really have any political ideology above his own self-gratification and self-idolation, it actually isn't too surprising the MAGA movement has developed positions he is mostly agnostic towards.
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09-24-2023 , 08:33 PM
Jim Jordanís highest professional accomplishment is being the
biggest tool in Congressional history, with Matt Gaetz a close second.

still trying to wrap my mind around that the GOP made him Chairman of the
Judiciary Committee when he could not even pass the bar; he is not a lawyer

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09-24-2023 , 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunyain
On the topic of Boebert, should we be appalled that in a crowded theatre it looks like her and her date definitely got to 2nd base, and likely 3rd? Or should we be reassured if nothing else she appears to be genuine, and this isn't really out of place with anything else about her persona?

This actually makes me like her.
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09-24-2023 , 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LirvA
This actually makes me like her.
I went from being a fan to hating her when she swiped left on my Bumble profile.
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09-26-2023 , 06:55 AM
Hutchinson rejects Gaetz claim that they dated.

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09-26-2023 , 10:13 AM
https://twitter.com/SenatorTester/st...60998302548408


Another dem senator calls for the resignation of Menendez. Hopefully this continues to pick up steam and he's gone soon. But Menendez seems hell bent on staying no matter what.
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09-26-2023 , 06:28 PM
MAGA Republicans attack Taylor Swift.
That should work out well for them.

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09-26-2023 , 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by caseIIclosed
But Menendez seems hell bent on staying no matter what.
Yep. We can only hope that this ill-conceived strategy results in real jail time.
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09-26-2023 , 07:13 PM
Wasn't sure where to drop this, as I can see it fitting into a few topics, but this seemed most appropriate.

All I'll say is, huge LOL.

Travis Kelce’s Ads For Pfizer And Bud Light Draw Right-Wing Anger

Quote:
Conservative pundits Megyn Kelly and Charlie Kirk criticized Kelce in a discussion on Kelly’s YouTube channel. Kirk said Kelce should be “shamed and humiliated” for his participation in the Pfizer ad, accusing both him and Pfizer of trying to make a profit. Both Kelly and Kirk questioned why Kelce was chosen as a spokesperson for the vaccine, stating his presumably young male fanbase are at lower risk of Covid-19 complications than older people. They also questioned the efficacy of the vaccine, suggesting it may give people myocarditis (though the CDC has cited studies showing people who actually get Covid-19 are at greater risk of myocarditis than those who have not had it). Some critics also criticized Kelce for his participation in the Bud Light ad and for his rumored relationship with Swift. “He’s super woke. He’s with Taylor, he endorsed Bud Light post-controversy, and he’s pushing the Pfizer vax,” Kelly said. In response to Kelce’s Pfizer ad, conservative commentator Tomi Lahren tweeted: “Is this what happens when you date Taylor Swift?” Swift, though generally quiet on political issues, is a vocal supporter of President Joe Biden. “Travis Kelce sold his soul to Pfizer to push the clot shots,” conservative influencers Hodgetwins tweeted to their 2.2 million followers (blood clots associated with the vaccine are rare). Kelce’s Instagram comments were inundated with hateful comments, with some accusing him of having “sold out” to the pharmaceutical company and making a “poor choice on what you promote.”
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09-27-2023 , 09:10 AM
A majority can do anything.

When House Democrats controlled the majority in the last Congress,
they slashed prescription drug prices, turbocharged American manufacturing,
rebuilt our communitiesí infrastructure, expanded health care for our veterans,
took action against gun violence and delivered the largest climate investment in our nationís history.

Nearly 10 months into their majority, House Republicans have used it to play increasingly unhinged political games

Why? Because McCarthy has handed the speakerís gavel over to the most extreme members of his party.

Hereís the MAGA Majority's ransom note,

Impeach the president without facts or evidence.
Impose a nationwide abortion ban ó starting with our service members.
Defund the FBI.
Gut cancer research.
Tear food assistance away from hungry moms, kids and babies.
Slash our seniorsí Social Security and Medicare benefits.
Cut the lifesaving health care we promised to our veterans.

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-...ark-rcna117373
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