The last thread on Nazism brought up some interesting points by some surprising posters. At one point, someone said they didnt' know what the words meant, and they felt they couldn't argue effectively because of that.

This is something I tried to get across implicitly and I'm glad it came out, because it's extremely relevant to the discussion and to modern politics in general.

George Orwell wrote one of the most important essays on politics that I can think of, called "Politics and the English Language." It is available here for free:

https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays...nglish/e_polit

In it he shows how language can be used, or misused, to change thought patterns in people, reduce the vividness of images, or to speak a lot while saying nothing. All of these are devices politicians use to great effect of course.

Nothing has changed since Orwell's time. Politicians use words like "socialism" to mean something different than the actual definition. People call people "fascists" but generally have no idea about the origin of the term and that it's a political philosophy and not just a big bad dicator.

Here is Mr. Orwell:


I thought this thread can be used to clear up the meaning of terms. For me, and for most dictionaries, socialism means something approximating "government/state control of the means of production." When Bernie Sanders or AOC talk about socialism, they mean soemthing that exists in Norway, which isn't socialism at all of course. I think this confuses people. I don't know why Bernie likes the term socialism. I imagine it's because it SOUNDS nice. Everyone likes being "social." We all like the sound of sitting around a campfire being "social."

I have known people who have told me proudly they are a "socialist." They generally mean to be saying "I'm a good person. I think everyone should be equal." (I imagine that's why they are proud of themselves.) I also imagine they DON'T mean to say they are Marxists, even though Marx was a socialist. I imagine they don't mean to say they prefer Venezuela to America.

HOWEVER I also imagine they don't mean to say: I love the free market as Norway does but would prefer higher taxes. that's because these same people generally hate free markets and the word "capitalism" sounds horrible to their ears.

So they just don't know what they mean. They like the sound of the word, and they want to feel like good people. I believe this, because I once worked at a private school, and the Vice Principal told me proudly she is a socialist, and stormed out of a meeting when I said something favorable about conversatives (the context is hard to explain, but had nothing to do with politics - I never even said I was a conservative). Now, she also used to talk A LOT about how private school changed her life and she always wanted to work in private schools. This person has a masters degree in history. She never thought to consider that her own life was a performative contradiction. Private schools would not exist in a socialist economy. And private schools are FOR PROFIT. That's usually WHY they're better. This thought never seemed to occur to her, and she was an otherwise intelligent person.


Long story short -

Why doesn't Bernie say he likes capitalism when that's what he actually wants?

Why can't we agree on what fascism means?


I think politicians clevery spin words all the time. If everyone said what they meant, they wouldn't get elected.

I am not sure if I was the "surprising" poster, but I'm a big fan of this thread and I think this is a really good OP. I look forward to contributing non-trolly content here in future.

So did you go to public or private schools ?

Wait till OP learns that Orwell was a socialist.

wow nice job arguing against imaginary people. I will admit there is no refutation for that.

also, ofc private schools could exist in a socialist country.

maybe he just thought he was a good person. he proly didnt know what it really mean.

also, Im pretty sure Orwell sold some books. performative contradiction!

I'm just dusting off my copy of "The Elements of Style" before I post anything longer than a sentence here.

This well illustrates the mistake that getting too hung up on definitions is. Concepts evolve a bit and situations change, we can't keep inventing new words so we use the ones that seem to fit best with the position. Any position will then have to be explained and wont be exactly the same as it once was with the same label from the past.

So I, and Corbyn and Sanders (and it's a growing movement I trust) identify as democratic socialists. I have no problem calling myself that even though it's not exactly the same as socialism was 50 years ago - so what? why should it be? Nor will democratic socialists all agree on everything according to some 'socialist rule book' - again why should we? We don't even have to think socialism as it was 50 years ago was a good idea for the time - I dont. I do think it's a general idea who's time is coming.

1. Use less commas.

2. Write a children's book.

The real problem is that with the state of education as it is, most American kids come out not knowing anything about economics. They mostly aren't aware that democratic socialism is based on free market economics. I think if you're going to change the definition of a word, at least have a reason for it, and at least be honest about why you're doing that. I've never heard Bernie say anything positive about capitalism.

Yep, he was. So was Einstein.

Generally if someone is great in one field, it doesn't mean they know anything about another field (economics).

I dont really think the meaning of Democratic Socialism has changed much throughout the years. It has always been about retaining the free market and capitalism.

Maybe its not pure "socialism" in your mind or when comparing to the dictionary definition but it has its own meaning which is clear.

The definition of a word is how people use it.

If people understand the word as you intended it to be used, then you are using the correct definition. Language is a moving, living thing.

Certain fields, and publications, will require fixed language- e.g. the medical field, and teach you to use the specific definitions they use. This is the only way to regulate that field and keep everyone safe.

So if people use socialism in one way, that's the definition of socialism. If the same people understand that socialism can mean two things, then they are both the definition of socialism.

Yeah I mean when your word doesn't have the same meaning as the dictionary's you should be blaming people when they get mixed up

But they don't.

Is democratic socialism based on free market economics? Bernie's might be but mine isn't. Mine allows some free market economics but much is nationalised with universal state provision for the essential stuff. There's definitely a problem with education. Rare to meet anyone who knows much about economics. Don't know that much about Bernie but given he is from the USA it's unsurprising if he runs to the right of democratic socialist in the UK.

The definition stuff remains misguided imo. Concept first, then use the best words we can find to capture the concepts (which themselves are often wide ranging and a bit vague).

we have to relax about the labels and concentrate on what people mean - that's really tough enough without imposing some straightjacket on what label type words mean

You must not know what socialist means.

Or you mean in the USSR there were still some industries, which is actually true. But not schools. Schools are essential brainwashing tools in socialist countries. In Vietnam a statue of "Uncle Ho" sits watching in every classroom. They learn all about those reeducation camps - or not.

bruh, everybody knows what a Democratic Socialist is. And it hasnt changed in 100 years. so like, the fact that it doesnt mean what you want it to mean so that you can argue against it, well thats a you problem.

I mean, you even said it yourself DemSoc are not Socialist. Hey thats proly why they arent called Socialists or Marxists or Anarcho-Syndicalist or whatever else the **** the CIA is paying you to attack.

Oh man your version sounds nightmarish.

Bernie usually points to scandanavian models. He almost never mentions how much private business there is there. This article and video are good resources:


https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffrey...not-socialist/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MerkGUx-2V4&t=575s

Bernie and AOC mostly call themselves socialists. Democratic Socialist comes out rarely.

The problem is it is too easy to go from one concept to the other - when a demagogue comes to power, and everyone is primted to accept "socialism" but the populace is too uneducated to know what version of socialism is meant - things can get bad very fast.

well you got me. indeed I did not know that socialism means that schools are brainwashing factories.

Then try different words, and extrapolate.

Instead of making things complicated, why don't we just use the words that have the dictionary meaning?

Seems to me the best word for Norway's economy is capitalist with many social services.

FYP to apply to the US in current events.