I lived for 6 months in a small town in Devon, SW UK, called Totnes, which alongside places like Glastonbury has a longstanding tradition of New Age, hippyish movements. Since I first visited, prices (including rent by staggering amounts) have gone up, parking has gone down, but what's really become prominent and a bit of a flashpoint that everyone's now aware of is the steady encroaching of the conspiracy theory movement into generally leftist, hippyish territory.

The hippy still looks much the same, some rich and thoughtful about what aspects of their appearance they want to underline, some merging their ideals with the Crustiness that comes from rejecting mainstream norms, but now is much more likely to be talking in far more individualistic terms, libertarian terms than they might have done 50 years ago, where collectivism was all the rage. Spirituality today invites you to explore the self, to make the self dominant. It invites you to reject authority in all terms other than the authority of teacher to student. It encourages an even application of scepticism to all ideas, the barb of 'who can really know anything, my truth is just as valid as yours' in order to allow midichlorians and thetans and homeopathic water all to have the same validity as gravity or evolution, all the while borrowing trendy terms from science in order to lend themselves authority. (see also: gene keys, human design)

Lack of trust in science plays a key part. Much like more recently Q-Anoners have a lack of faith in democracy, in Democrats, and the electoral system, since the heyday of faith in science in the 50s and 60s, medical science has not given us any more decades to our lives, science in general failing to live up to the promise (??) of flying cars and colonization of other planets, and instead we find ourselves immiserated by the technology in our daily life rather than finding it improving things.

I'm not sure how atomised american society is, but at least in educated middle class circles as I'm imagining most of us are from, most in England will at least know someone who knows someone who's a bit of a weird hippy. That bit of a weird hippy is more likely these days to espouse medical libertarianism, see all government action as the opposite, believe that climate change is fiction - I was told by some hippyish types that it was hilariously arrogant of humanity to believe it could have an affect on the planet - that vaccines and masks are dangerous to the soul, and a bunch of connected ideas. My own brother now calls himself a guru and refused to wear a mask and refused to promise me he wouldn't try to heal anyone of covid.

There is even an anti-sunscreen movement that have frankly scary beliefs. This one is particularly interesting because you don't need to scratch the surface of this one very hard before you find the standard anti-semitic beliefs that appear to be very common in these circles.

Are all these people conservative, Conservative, or libertarian, or against leftist ideas like let's try not to burn the planet up as fast as we are doing? No, absolutely not. I find it entirely consistent to have some spirituality, to be aware that existence is not defined solely by having physical characteristics, i.e. metaphysical ideas are possible, while still hewing to evidence-based ideas based in morality. But a lot of people are teetering on the fence. Once you fall into the conspiratorial way of thinking, it's very difficult to find your way out of it. It is possible, but rare.

Further reading / sources:

https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/...ican-politics/

https://momentmag.com/woo-to-q-russell-brand-northrup/

https://www.conspirituality.net/ (podcast about the intersection of conspiracy theories and spirituality, and the figures implicated within)

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/...iracy-politics

Ok I'll bite. What is this about? I never use sunscreen but it's because I'm brown and don't need it.

There is a famous quote that's usually attributed to the former US supreme court justice Oliver Wendell Holmes that goes: "a mind once opened to a new idea, never goes back to its original dimensions".

I'm reminded of the people in Latin America who ask me if I know how to ride a bike (not a motorcycle but a bicycle) or swim.

But I can assure you that every American posting in this forum knows some sort of hippie.

It's just the idea that sunscreen isn't necessary for anyone and is harmful and the myth is maintained in order to sell us products and control us, maybe even make us sick so that mainstream medicine can fix it. There's no explicit anti-semitism in the idea itself, but rather the biggest names have also said anti-semitic things.

https://boingboing.net/2023/05/11/di...-movement.html

https://www.conspirituality.net/epis...-michelle-wong

Yuh I mean people talk about the idea of 'keeping an open mind', as if certain ideas aren't patently false and can be safely dismissed. One of the problems with having too open a mind is any old crap can float in there. There are lots of analogies between a computer and a human brain, and the one that works well here is that we can be infected by a virus. Being intelligent is no guard against fuzzy thinking and barmy ideas. Robert Fischer, arguably the greatest ever chess player, and jewish himself, appeared to believe lots of very, erm, funky things about the world order, 9/11, not sure if he ever said anything about lizard people or flat earth but it would have been within the vicinity.

So we should keep the mind slightly ajar and have a high bar for what actually gets in. My mind will happily keep it slightly ajar and interact with an idea through the slit, but I'm very protective about what does and doesn't get into my head, because once it's in, it's harder to evaluate and keep in check.

And an interesting podcast that delves into that specific town, Totnes, explores the relationship between the New Age hippyish movement, libertarianism, and The Light newspaper (anti-vax, anti climate lobby, chemtrails, flat earth, etc), it's sister newspaper in Germany, and even the links to Q-Anon.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001mssl

It suffers from what I call BBCitis, which I'd boil down to 'yay look how centrist we are, isn't centrism awesome', and could easily be pinged as the natural product of a mainstream that feels threatened by ideas that run counter to their own. And I think that criticism is valid. I actually find that my own politics run similar to those of the conspiracy theorists in superficial ways. I agree with something like 50% of their premises, but almost all their conclusions are wild to the point of unhinged. It's like

'shadowy forces have perverted our democracy'
'YES I completely agree we need to take back our public marketplace and restore faith in critical thinking and education'
'no that's not what I meant, I just meant jews'
'SIGH'

If the right want a monopoly on kooks, let them have them. The spiritual/wellness side of the left has always been an embarrassment to me.

Think it's worth adding a name, JP Sears, who I imagine many of you will recognise as being indicative of this issue, and the phrase:

'Listen to what they say, and then listen to what they sell.'

The big spiritual leaders are almost always grifters of one form or another. There is almost always a product that comes at the end of the 'mainstream medicine does this thing wrong, here's how to do it better, just by buying my product.'

This is a fairly big demographic and to allow the right to steal a section of the left that's supposed to have principles around peace and love and community is not a trivial thing just because you don't identify with those principles. When the right has captured peace and love, we're out of the realm of



and into the realm of

I do identify with “peace, love, and community”, just not in a Great Spirit sense or auras, crystals, homeopathy, etc etc. The conspiracy fringe is also something separate from the spiritual hippie element. There’s a spectrum and I don’t see losing the most unhinged as a loss. I’m also curious if you’ve found any data to back up the idea that the left is losing any substantial amount of its base to the conspiratorial far right.

Anti conspiracy theory guy promotes conspiracy theory that anti-sunscreen movement is anti- semitic. Gee, what a surprise.

interesting. subbed and far out. too stoned to contribute at the moment

the atomized forces for good are of greater number, and can identify - while being humble before the truth - that man is wayward, baby lol

and is reaping that corruption. the daily parade of lunacies that constitute the news.

Not sure if you're referring to me, but I am not anti-conspiracy theories. Lots of true conspiracies out there, MK Ultra, Tuskegee, Flint, subprime mortgages, yada yada. And there is a proven dark money link between right wing think tanks and the perversion of our public marketplace of ideas. See: https://bostonreview.net/articles/ma...arlottesville/

There is a lot grossly wrong with our world, and there are shadowy figures behind it. It's just think tanks and corrupt governments and the like. Boring and stereotypical, but it's just a standard abuse of power situation.

But I think I want to give you credit for being ironic, just perhaps failing due to Poe's Law.

So the agnostic, 'spiritual but not religious', going about their daily lives without ever threatening to join a cult or buy hydroxychloroquine and so on aren't much at risk of falling prey to this sort of stuff. But it's not 'the most unhinged'. I know a good few people who you would otherwise think of as a good person, not overly hippyish or out there, who have fallen down the rabbit hole and will struggle to get out. Naomi Wolf, once the darling of feminism, with her seminal, breakout hit 'The Beauty Myth', has gone full-blown into Q-Anon, covid denialism, and barmy stuff about January 6th: https://naomiwolf.substack.com/p/dea...ves-i-am-sorry . Many of her followers would have gone with her.

January 6th itself can be seen as not having happened without this wholesale takeover. No, I don't have numbers, I don't have access to the right sorts of data nor do I have the expertise to dissect it without bias, but this isn't a call to action so much as a call to education about the nature and potential extent of this problem.

Yeah, I was trying to be ironic. Not one of my best efforts though admittedly.

I am rather intrigued with your anti-sunscreen movement having scary beliefs and being tied to anti-semitism claim though. Could you elaborate on what these scary beliefs are exactly?

There is actually a good scientific reason for not using sunscreen by the way.

Oh, another thing. Steiner schools: great idea, right? Probably still a great idea, though they should consider a name change, as Rudolf Steiner did a lot of the groundwork necessary for aryan supremacy ideas, though he probably changed his mind a bunch about anti-semitic ideas over his lifetime.

Source: never heard of these guys so no vouching but they seem legit on a quick scan.

https://social-ecology.org/wp/2009/0...-ecofascism-2/

Go on, what's the scientific reason.

I listened to a podcast about it, I'm certainly not an authority. In general I trust the things they say on the pod, they appear to do a good job of seeking for their own bias and accounting for it, and come from and are still to some extent in the world of spirituality. Corroborated here:
https://newsbeezer.com/jump-into-the...reen-movement/
https://www.glossy.co/beauty/the-con...-conspiracies/
https://boingboing.net/2023/05/11/di...-movement.html

The fact that you need to expose your skin to the sun in order for your body to make vitamin D. Adequate vitamin D levels are essential for a strong immune system and general good health. I wasn't even aware that there was such a thing as an "anti-sunscreen movement". To me it just seems like common sense. Of course you don't want to get sunburnt though, so sensible exposure is the key. Again just common sense. A fairly rare commodity these days it seems.

The anti-semitic connection just seems silly.

If you told me these people cared about sunscreen I would have guessed they promoted its use so they can stay whiter.

Yeah, obviously white supremacists these sunscreen users.

Anti sunscreen is pretty much mainstream now. Although I dont completely get that.

And how can you blame them? They got messed with glyphosate, with tobacco, with alcohol, with pain meds, with many things... probably fluroid.

Please, tell me more.

wazz,

I understand your point, but I wonder if it as new a phenomenon as you imagine. For decades in the U.S., especially in the American northwest, there has been a type of person who shares some of the hippy ethos but who is also highly individualistic, deeply suspicious of government, and prone to conspiratorial thinking. If you went to a farmer's market in that area, it wouldn't be that unusual to encounter someone running a stand who was really into organic food, sustainable farming, holistic medicine, and QAnon. And it has been that way for quite a while.

The type of person I am describing may be uniquely American.

I don't imagine at all that it is a new phenomenon and I'm sure that a lot of resistance to the government in the 60s and the Vietnam war, especially in rural california (distinction here between norcal and socal at all?), was both hippyish and highly libertarian. What I believe to be new is the extent to which that mindset has spread and is taking over the hippyish world in general. Individualism and communalism are largely at odds with each other though of course they can sit next to each other comfortably at times.

In theory, yes, but the U.S. is weird. THere is a segment of the U.S. population that thinks of itself as highly individualistic. They think that everyone begins on more or less equal footing and that success is available to anyone who is willing to work hard. They believe that social problems are largely attributable to laziness and moral degradation.

At the same time, they embrace the notion that people look out for each other, especially in small towns and rural areas. This latter idea is so prevalent that it is a trope in movies, TV, and country music.

Look at a show like Yellowstone. Every character is portrayed as a rugged individualist. But the cowboys effectively live communally, and the most rousing scenes are supposed to be the ones in which the cowboys come together to impose frontier justice on the bad guys. Sons of Anarchy portrays the same dynamic. That recent terrible song by Jason Aldean leans into the same trope.

Part of the reason that the world of hippyness is susceptible to all this is the hippy spiritual wants you to look deep within yourself for the answers and trust your gut. When the self provides all the answers, and you can trust the answers it provides as the only source of actual reality, community work dies away, self-reliance rules, and there becomes no need to even ask whether structural propblems could be the cause of people's suffering.