The Negatives of Marijuana being Legalized
09-21-2023
, 12:22 PM
09-21-2023
, 12:44 PM
09-21-2023
, 01:17 PM
09-21-2023
, 02:16 PM
09-24-2023
, 06:20 PM
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For people with a mental health condition, the positive:negative is much better for prescription medications than for marijuana.
Are you talking above just about antidepressants? Because if so, I don't know what you mean about them causing "severe chemical dependency." And if you are referring to more than just antidepressants then it seems silly to compile a list of potential side effects from multiple drugs and compare that list to one from a single drug.
Also, the link between antidepressants and suicide is complicated and far from a given. While a large meta-analysis did show an increase in suicidality (suicidal thoughts and behaviors) in those under 25 taking such medications, there are 2 issues I have with this:
1) There were no actual suicides in this large sample despite that increase.
2) There was no finding of increased suicidality in those 25-65, and there was a decrease in suicidality in those 65+. And yet, there is no noticeable increase in suicides in youth over the past 3 decades that isn't also seen in adults.
Are you talking above just about antidepressants? Because if so, I don't know what you mean about them causing "severe chemical dependency." And if you are referring to more than just antidepressants then it seems silly to compile a list of potential side effects from multiple drugs and compare that list to one from a single drug.
Also, the link between antidepressants and suicide is complicated and far from a given. While a large meta-analysis did show an increase in suicidality (suicidal thoughts and behaviors) in those under 25 taking such medications, there are 2 issues I have with this:
1) There were no actual suicides in this large sample despite that increase.
2) There was no finding of increased suicidality in those 25-65, and there was a decrease in suicidality in those 65+. And yet, there is no noticeable increase in suicides in youth over the past 3 decades that isn't also seen in adults.
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I have taken hundreds of people off SSRIs, and though you state these effects to be a certainty, they truly aren't. Plenty of my patients have stopped cold turkey and none have been suicidal as a result. I agree that cannabis is relatively safe, but for depression it isn't safer than an SSRI.
Are you referring to my comment about changes in youth suicide vs adult suicide vs geriatric? This isn't from a study that I know, but instead looking at the actual CDC data.
Edit: or do you mean the meta-analysis that found increased suicidality in youth that didn't find any increase in those 25+ or any suicides at all? That was from the analysis that led to the black box warning.
Are you referring to my comment about changes in youth suicide vs adult suicide vs geriatric? This isn't from a study that I know, but instead looking at the actual CDC data.
Edit: or do you mean the meta-analysis that found increased suicidality in youth that didn't find any increase in those 25+ or any suicides at all? That was from the analysis that led to the black box warning.
Cannabis absolutely is 10000% safer than SSRIs. Does everybody that is put on SSRIs turn suicidal and violent? No, certainly not. But are there outliers where patients do take a very bad turn? Yes, there are, and that's the point of the black box warning, and why these drugs are potentially very dangerous, and shouldn't be given out like candy to every kid that comes into the office with emotional problems.
A perfect example of such an outlier, is Alyssa Bustamante. She had a very traumatic upbringing and dealt with a lot of abandonment, her mother and father would be off doing drugs instead of caring for her and her younger brothers. She had to witness her mother overdose. Her father was violent towards her mother. I've read she has Bipolar Disorder, which apparently is genetic, but she also has Borderline Personality Disorder, which was caused by this childhood abuse.
As a result, she began hurting herself at a young age by cutting, burning, and biting herself, and she attempted suicide on at least two occasions from my understanding. At 13 she swallowed an entire bottle of OTC sleeping pills, and her grandmother found her and she had to be taken to the hospital to get her stomach pumped. It was then that she started getting psychiatric care.
In 2009 at the age of 15, her doctor increased her dosage to a level she had never been at before, and it IMMEDIATELY caused a downturn for Alyssa.
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The defense attorneys started closing arguments with details of Alyssa's 2007 suicide attempt. They talked about even though she was certified as an adult, a 15-year-old is still a child and her brain and emotions were not fully developed. They said Alyssa is a severe emotionally disturbed child and while that doesn't excuse the crime, the judge should consider it while determining her sentence.They said in Sept. and Oct. Alyssa was on a downward spiral in her treatments and Prozac wasn't helping. He called it a gathering storm that was coming on and if Alyssa would have been hospitalized in mid-October, the crime may not have happened.
...
Dr. Rosalyn Schultz is a psychologist with a clinical forensic practice in St. Louis.She looked over Bustamante's medical records and interviewed family members for 22 hours. She said from the interviews and records, Bustamante witnessed a lot of childhood drama. She told the court Bustamante's mother abandoned her and she witnessed her father abusing her mother as well as witnessing both parents drug and alcohol abuse issues which led to mental problems.Bustamante told Schultz that when she cut herself, she couldn't feel the pain and she did it to fall asleep.Schultz testified that the Pathway's treatment was inadequate. Schultz told the court that according to a Sept. 2009 Pathway's report said Bustamante was suicidal and she should have been hospitalized. According to Schultz, better treatment and better care could have meant more progress in her case.Schultz said there is a link between suicide and homicide and that homicide is externalizing the actions of suicide. According to Schultz, Bustamante showed remorse when she talked with her in Dec. 2011.Schultz said as Bustamante was being transported to jail, she broke down and cried a lot. Bustamante said she saw Elizabeth's image in her mind and had nightmares. Schultz said Bustamante told her during Elizabeth's death, she was in a dream-like state and in a sense, watched it happen....
Dr. Edwin Johnstone, a licensed psychiatrist with 16 years of experience in clinic research of anti-depressants. Dr. Johnstone testified that fluoxetine, the generic name for Prozac, can cause adverse and severe side effects on those taking it. Dr. Johnstone said adolescences, teens and females are most at risk for the side effects including impulsiveness, insomnia, agitation, irritability, suicide and violent events.
Dr. Johnstone said although he has never had a conversation with Alyssa; through her records that he's read; he would diagnose her with borderline personality disorder. He testified that her medical records indicated an increase in her dose of fluoxetine in early October. He said after that, her diary entries became increasingly violent. Dr. Johnstone said the prescribed dosage was a "major contributing factor" in Elizabeth Olten's death....
Another emotional testimony was when Alyssa's Grandmother, Karen Brooke, took the stand. Brooke gained custody of Alyssa when she was 8. Brooke described Michelle as out of control with drinking and drugs. Brooke said when the moved to Missouri, Alyssa had a hard time adjusting because she was used to being a parent to her younger siblings. Brooke said things got better for a time, but then on Labor Day Weekend 2007; Alyssa tried to commit suicide by overdosing on nighttime painkillers. She was in the hospital for two weeks.
Brooke discussed the ups and down of Alyssa's mood and behavior that happened over the next two years. Brooke testified that she went through multiple counselors and therapists trying to get the right help for Alyssa, but it didn't seem to help as Alyssa was still cutting herself.
Brooke testified Alyssa's dosage of fluoxetine in early October 2009 was 40 milligrams a day, the highest she had been prescribed. Brooke said within a week, Alyssa's behavior took a turn for the worst. She started not coming home from the school bus and not eating within the family. Brooke said Alyssa's doctor had warned her the drug may take a month or so to level out. Brooke said she didn't have a chance to give the drug a month, since Elizabeth was killed on October 21st.
...
Dr. Rosalyn Schultz is a psychologist with a clinical forensic practice in St. Louis.She looked over Bustamante's medical records and interviewed family members for 22 hours. She said from the interviews and records, Bustamante witnessed a lot of childhood drama. She told the court Bustamante's mother abandoned her and she witnessed her father abusing her mother as well as witnessing both parents drug and alcohol abuse issues which led to mental problems.Bustamante told Schultz that when she cut herself, she couldn't feel the pain and she did it to fall asleep.Schultz testified that the Pathway's treatment was inadequate. Schultz told the court that according to a Sept. 2009 Pathway's report said Bustamante was suicidal and she should have been hospitalized. According to Schultz, better treatment and better care could have meant more progress in her case.Schultz said there is a link between suicide and homicide and that homicide is externalizing the actions of suicide. According to Schultz, Bustamante showed remorse when she talked with her in Dec. 2011.Schultz said as Bustamante was being transported to jail, she broke down and cried a lot. Bustamante said she saw Elizabeth's image in her mind and had nightmares. Schultz said Bustamante told her during Elizabeth's death, she was in a dream-like state and in a sense, watched it happen....
Dr. Edwin Johnstone, a licensed psychiatrist with 16 years of experience in clinic research of anti-depressants. Dr. Johnstone testified that fluoxetine, the generic name for Prozac, can cause adverse and severe side effects on those taking it. Dr. Johnstone said adolescences, teens and females are most at risk for the side effects including impulsiveness, insomnia, agitation, irritability, suicide and violent events.
Dr. Johnstone said although he has never had a conversation with Alyssa; through her records that he's read; he would diagnose her with borderline personality disorder. He testified that her medical records indicated an increase in her dose of fluoxetine in early October. He said after that, her diary entries became increasingly violent. Dr. Johnstone said the prescribed dosage was a "major contributing factor" in Elizabeth Olten's death....
Another emotional testimony was when Alyssa's Grandmother, Karen Brooke, took the stand. Brooke gained custody of Alyssa when she was 8. Brooke described Michelle as out of control with drinking and drugs. Brooke said when the moved to Missouri, Alyssa had a hard time adjusting because she was used to being a parent to her younger siblings. Brooke said things got better for a time, but then on Labor Day Weekend 2007; Alyssa tried to commit suicide by overdosing on nighttime painkillers. She was in the hospital for two weeks.
Brooke discussed the ups and down of Alyssa's mood and behavior that happened over the next two years. Brooke testified that she went through multiple counselors and therapists trying to get the right help for Alyssa, but it didn't seem to help as Alyssa was still cutting herself.
Brooke testified Alyssa's dosage of fluoxetine in early October 2009 was 40 milligrams a day, the highest she had been prescribed. Brooke said within a week, Alyssa's behavior took a turn for the worst. She started not coming home from the school bus and not eating within the family. Brooke said Alyssa's doctor had warned her the drug may take a month or so to level out. Brooke said she didn't have a chance to give the drug a month, since Elizabeth was killed on October 21st.
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Alyssa Bustamante's friends paint a picture of a kind, funny, social teen - not someone capable of premeditated murder.
"Before all this she was a different person," said a close friend of Bustamante who didn't want to be identified. "This wasn't how I knew her."
She showed us an oversized colorful red jacket with cats and dogs on it that Bustamante left at her house. It was this playful side of Bustamante that her friend knew, not the portrait of an accused child killer.
"Before this, before all of this, she was a normal 15-year-old girl," her friend said. "This really isn't her. This was not the Alyssa that I knew."
On Oct. 14, one week before Elizabeth's slaying, Bustamante had written that she was unable to use her cell phone because the charger had died, which meant she couldn't talk to anyone about the depression and rage she was feeling.
'If I don't talk about it, I bottle it up, and when I explode someone's going to die,' she wrote in a journal that was read to the court by her defense attorney, Charlie Moreland.
"Before all this she was a different person," said a close friend of Bustamante who didn't want to be identified. "This wasn't how I knew her."
She showed us an oversized colorful red jacket with cats and dogs on it that Bustamante left at her house. It was this playful side of Bustamante that her friend knew, not the portrait of an accused child killer.
"Before this, before all of this, she was a normal 15-year-old girl," her friend said. "This really isn't her. This was not the Alyssa that I knew."
On Oct. 14, one week before Elizabeth's slaying, Bustamante had written that she was unable to use her cell phone because the charger had died, which meant she couldn't talk to anyone about the depression and rage she was feeling.
'If I don't talk about it, I bottle it up, and when I explode someone's going to die,' she wrote in a journal that was read to the court by her defense attorney, Charlie Moreland.
Immediately after Alyssa's dosage of prozac was increased to 40 milligrams, she instantly took a drastic downturn, and it ultimately led to the death of Elizabeth Olten. It was not Alyssa's decision to
1. be on Prozac
2. have her dosage increased to 40 milligrams
Those were outside of her control, just like her entire childhood had was.
She did have a major problem with depression and anger and self harm through cutting, and she also seemingly had an obsession with knives. In this photograph you can see cuts all over her wrist, and she's also wearing a necklace adorned with what appears to be a meat cleaver.
From what I've read and learned about her, at school in person she was a pretty typical, normal girl, though she did have very strong emotions and outbursts and she did have some behavioral issues.
This is Alyssa holding the knife while playing around with another girl.
So she did have violent fantasies, and at home when she was on the internet she was more outspoken about her negative feelings that she had, and she apparently expressed herself with a "Bad Alyssa" persona online. But when her dosage of prozac was increased, it put her on a downward spiral and I think she could no longer regulate and differentiate between fantasy and reality. When she committed the crime she was apparently in a state of depersonalization or dissociation, and her grandfather testified that the night of the crime, she was unusually happy.
So on the subject of SSRIs, no they obviously don't cause everyone that takes them to commit suicide or homicide, but there in fact are obvious outliers like Alyssa Bustamante.
The authorities found cannabis seeds in her room during their search, and they also found her prozac. During her interrogation, she told Sergent Rice that the FBI "found stuff in my room, but not like evidence, or anything. They found marijuana seeds." Rice laughed, and said he didn't care at all about the marijuana seeds. Alyssa then responded, "and they found my medicine."
The way she says it in the interview makes it sound like she's offering up a tiny bit of guilt with the marijuana seeds, but then it almost sounds like a confession to being on the medication, like she knows that the medication is what caused her to do it. Her prozac was a greater secret to her than the marijuana seeds. It wasn't pot that made Alyssa do what she did, it was prozac.
Prozac is far more dangerous than cannabis and probably shouldn't be given to children at all.
Last edited by LirvA; 09-24-2023 at 06:29 PM.
Reason: Land'O'Lakes and wreckem I'm replying to you in the lc thread
09-24-2023
, 06:55 PM