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Police brutality and police reform (US) Police brutality and police reform (US)

08-14-2020 , 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
Since we have so many UKers here, I have a question.

Does there exist a fetish there where people are totally obsessed with the American South and all that goes with that?
Does hosting "Deliverance" movie nights count? Asking for a friend.
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08-14-2020 , 01:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
I'm not going to say there are absolutely no exceptions, but that is the prevailing right wing opinion on race. My source isn't Seth Meyers. It's talking to right wingers here and elsewhere. Look up Ben Shaprio talking race with Joe Rogan. He's espousing many of these ideas.
In case you missed it CV, here's Shapiro talking to Andrew Neil.

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08-14-2020 , 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Cut
What would that proof look like?



Not offering these to you as proof, just putting them here for reference:

Black men are 2.5 times more likely than white men to be killed by police during their lifetime.

www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793



Black people who were fatally shot by police seemed to be twice as likely as white people to be unarmed.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1745-9133.12269
It would be a study that incorporates all relevant variables to determine if the police are racist. For instance if it is determined that being poor or being involved in the illegal sale of drugs makes you more likely to be killed by police you would look at how many of each race are those things.
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08-14-2020 , 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey
It would be a study that incorporates all relevant variables to determine if the police are racist. For instance if it is determined that being poor or being involved in the illegal sale of drugs makes you more likely to be killed by police you would look at how many of each race are those things.
You are describing exactly what sociologists do when conducting the studies which you repeatedly ignore and pretend don't exist.
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08-14-2020 , 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgiggity
You are describing exactly what sociologists do when conducting the studies which you repeatedly ignore and pretend don't exist.
Yeah, but they're biased leftists with a hidden agenda who have been brainwashed by the librul colleges, ldo.
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08-14-2020 , 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
Since we have so many UKers here, I have a question.

Does there exist a fetish there where people are totally obsessed with the American South and all that goes with that?
Lol... it seems that way. Wonder if that's because the South was/probably still is populated by majority brits
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08-14-2020 , 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d2_e4
Does hosting "Deliverance" movie nights count? Asking for a friend.
Nah that is a great movie. If you move on the the “squeal like a pig” re-enactment then you have a problem.
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08-14-2020 , 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgiggity
You are describing exactly what sociologists do when conducting the studies which you repeatedly ignore and pretend don't exist.
I would love for you to post one or two studies to prove me wrong. I would love to read it.
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08-14-2020 , 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey
I would love for you to post one or two studies to prove me wrong. I would love to read it.
You just dismissed two without reading them. No one should take your requests for studies seriously.
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08-14-2020 , 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by esspoker
Lol... it seems that way. Wonder if that's because the South was/probably still is populated by majority brits
Wat
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08-14-2020 , 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
You just dismissed two without reading them. No one should take your requests for studies seriously.
maxcut (who posted them) made no mention that those studies included all relevant outside factors. I read the intros to both and neither made mention of poverty or crime rates in their studies. Do they?
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08-14-2020 , 12:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey
I would love for you to post one or two studies to prove me wrong. I would love to read it.
Stop lying.
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08-14-2020 , 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey
maxcut (who posted them) made no mention that those studies included all relevant outside factors. I read the intros to both and neither made mention of poverty or crime rates in their studies. Do they?
What does poverty have to do with the probability of being armed, given that one was already shot by the police?
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08-14-2020 , 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey
I would love for you to post one or two studies to prove me wrong. I would love to read it.
Here you go bahbah. WN kindly put together this for me when I asked for similar studies previously. I read the stuff he linked to, I trust you will do the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
Instead of trying to assess what is the prevailing narrative, I'm mostly just going to tell you what I think, based on the research I'm familiar with. Because everything is complicated enough without introducing another layer on top.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by white supremacist here. If you are asking whether or not the CJS is consciously and intentionally white supremacist, a la Jim Crow, then I would say no, and I think most researchers would distinguish between the Jim Crow era and the present. There is a book called The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness, which I didn't recommend because I haven't read it. The slightly more nuanced argument is that the outcomes the system produces create and reproduce racial inequality unjustly, just like Jim Crow did -- regardless of intent. This review is useful in making that distinction, e.g. (quoting the book):



"The Age of Colorblindness" is a reference to Bonilla-Silva's book, which I mentioned before, which further develops this idea that more subtle prejudices, and ideological commitments he calls "color-blindness," contribute to the reproduction of racial inequality even while most people now reject explicitly racist beliefs and find them repellent.

I think the most important part of this explanation, central to explaining the second part of your question, is the role of economic inequality. TeflonDawg stated this in a rather pithy way the other day, so I'm going to borrow it:



The difficulty is that the two are intertwined. For example, it's not just that blacks in the US have less wealth and income than whites, it's that they are far more likely to live in neighborhoods of concentrated poverty, because of residential segregation. Various research documents the harms that compound from growing up under those circumstances. Raj Chetty's recent work (here and here) is useful.

Segregation was brought about during the Jim Crow era, by law. Though we eventually made de jure segregation illegal, we have not made that much progress at desegregation, because it isn't legally required. The Color of Law, which I recommended earlier, documents this history very well. It also discusses the way that explicitly racist housing law, redlining policies, the GI bill, and other legal discriminatory practices around housing contributed over time to the wealth gap, because a lot of the wealth accumulation of middle class America post WWII is tied to appreciation of real estate. For a brief summary, see here.

Several consequences of this are important:

1) With regard to your questions about other non-white groups, I think most of the differences can be explained by aggregate differences in wealth and income. The author of the Berkeley letter mentions Asian Americans. There is no doubt that they have (and do) face discrimination. The internment camps of WWII are a particularly horrific example. But it didn't go on long enough to create the kind of economic inequality that exists between blacks and whites. Nor is there the same kind of residential segregation. The number of Asian Americans has grown from immigration, and Asian immigrants tend to be already better educated, and earn incomes higher than the median for the US:



2) Differences in economic status, and particularly differences in exposure to neighborhoods of concentrated poverty, explain a lot about differences in exposure to the criminal justice system. The relationship between poverty and crime isn't that simple, but again race is relevant, illustrated by problems caused by tension between police and community residents, which contribute to problems with crime.

But another problem is that the criminal justice system creates feedback loops which make it even more difficult to break out of poverty. Chetty's work documents this effect, via measures of intergenerational mobility. Qualitatively, the federal complaint against the Ferguson PD, from 2014, provides a useful illustration of how this can play out. I think this note from the introduction, in particular, is important:



Basically, and this isn't unique to Ferguson (though Ferguson was particularly egregious), the police treated these kinds of neighborhoods, which are largely inhabited by blacks, as a source of revenue, engaging in all sorts of discriminatory practices:



I don't think those practices were mostly motivated by racial animus. They were mostly motivated by institutional self-interest, as noted above. But the net effect is like a kind of regressive tax. People who are already poor end up unfairly paying lots of fines. People end up with criminal records which make finding employment more difficult. All of this compounds with just normal issues caused by poverty, lack of education, and other social problems. All of this is inextricably tied to segregation, and acts to compound racial inequalities which were originally created by racism. When that's not enough, there are also still some issues of lingering discrimination, some of which I documented earlier. I believe The New Jim Crow focuses around racism in drug policy, as another example.

This is a long post, but hopefully it's useful at least to begin to answer your question. I think the essential conclusion is that you can't understand these issues without understanding how the status quo was created by racism. You can't really understand why we have never made much progress at fixing them without understanding how more contemporary racial ideology ("colorblindness") explains our unwillingness to examine that fact. Which is basically the reason why people like the letter writer insist on looking for other explanations, no matter how weak.
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08-14-2020 , 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chezlaw
In case you missed it CV, here's Shapiro talking to Andrew Neil.

A++ parting shot by Mr. Neil. Actually lol'd.
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08-14-2020 , 01:48 PM
Don't really like to post Alex Jones stuff but you might also enjoy this

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08-14-2020 , 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chezlaw
Don't really like to post Alex Jones stuff but you might also enjoy this

I'd suggest Alex Jones Returns on JRE if you're looking for high quality discussion.
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08-14-2020 , 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bahbahmickey
It would be a study that incorporates all relevant variables to determine if the police are racist. For instance if it is determined that being poor or being involved in the illegal sale of drugs makes you more likely to be killed by police you would look at how many of each race are those things.
How do you account for all the white kids out in the county that get a pass(or repeated passes) while the black kids in the city get it the hard way from day1? That's very much been a reality over the years but it won't show up in the stats. Who gets the benefit of discretion in those scenarios and who doesn't definitely skews the stats imo.
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08-14-2020 , 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie
I'm not going to say there are absolutely no exceptions, but that is the prevailing right wing opinion on race. My source isn't Seth Meyers. It's talking to right wingers here and elsewhere. Look up Ben Shaprio talking race with Joe Rogan. He's espousing many of these ideas.
I've seen very little of Shapiro as he looks about 12 and had this smarmy attitude that just annoyed me so I couldn't really handle him, but I'll check him out some more, I'm sure he's probably on youtube since many of Rogan's bits are, cheers for the heads up.
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08-14-2020 , 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d2_e4
Does hosting "Deliverance" movie nights count? Asking for a friend.
Don't forget its cousin

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08-14-2020 , 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by corpus vile
I've seen very little of Shapiro as he looks about 12 and had this smarmy attitude that just annoyed me so I couldn't really handle him
That's exactly who Ben Shapiro is. He also has a lot of ideas in common with you on race. He's held up as a top conservative thinker, so he's reasonably representative of the best conservatives can come up with.
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08-14-2020 , 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman
Since we have so many UKers here, I have a question.

Does there exist a fetish there where people are totally obsessed with the American South and all that goes with that?
No. Whereas in the United States:--

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08-14-2020 , 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by corpus vile
I've seen very little of Shapiro as he looks about 12 and had this smarmy attitude that just annoyed me so I couldn't really handle him, but I'll check him out some more, I'm sure he's probably on youtube since many of Rogan's bits are, cheers for the heads up.
His debating style is a bit irritating because he has pre-canned answers for everything and he talks super fast. He basically just got famous due to internet clips of him dunking on wokester college students in Q&A sessions. I don't believe any of his positions are particularly unique or sophisticated.
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08-14-2020 , 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by formula72
I'd suggest Alex Jones Returns on JRE if you're looking for high quality discussion.
Well done if that was intentional.
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08-14-2020 , 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chezlaw
In case you missed it CV, here's Shapiro talking to Andrew Neil.

Thanks for that Chez, just watched it, he was no less annoying than when I first seen him. He reminds me in a sense of a male Candace Owens. He's got the same nasty streak. He's prone to hubris, but vindictive, misrepresents questions and positions, engages in argumentum ad hominem, is deflective, doesn't handle hard questions well and is dishonest. Then he basically runs away. He seems part of the new wave of populist right from what I can see.

I'm pro choice so I'm not interested in his views on abortion or most Conservatives view (or any pro life argument, at the risk of sounding arrogant or close minded) and while I don't agree with and disapprove of his Palestinian hatred, I also recognise the context as Zionist American & Israeli Jews and Palestinians and non Palestinian Arabs have been demonizing each other for three quarters of a century due to their Hatfield Vs McCoy style feuding.

I'm gonna take up Wookie's suggestion and hunt about for him on Joe Rogan re race, specifically. Thanks again for the link.
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