What are you talking about? I literally stated that most non-vegan foods are fortified. They are fortified to ensure carnivores get all their nutrients. Speaking about what specifically lacks in a vegan diet in a thread about veganism is not "targeting" vegans.

It is hard to go wrong with the Mediterranean Diet, which is what i eat.

If you are mixing a diet that is largely plant based (Veg, Fruit, Nuts and Seeds, Olives, etc) with seafood (or small amounts of lean land meats), you will almost always get the full nutritional load the body requires. No supplementing required.

That is why, year over year, the Mediterranean diet tops the vast, vast majority of lists compiled by nutritional experts (and there is no second choice even close to knocking it off) as the best and most complete diet.

I defended McDonald's a few times on 2p2 as a source of healthy food, if you're conscious about what you're ordering. Once upon a time, before CoVid basically, you could order a chicken sandwich combo, replace fries with side salad, go lite mayo, and replace soda with coffee and get a reasonably nutriously balanced meal.

No more, at least not recently. My local Mickey D hasn't had salads for months.

See my prior post as the mediterranean diet has no deficiencies unless you just ignore whole sections of it unlike the Vegan one which requires supplementation no matter how much you try to balance it.

And no meat and dairy as part of a diet are not a negative.

What many people like to do (particularly ethical vegans) is lump the general populace who pays no attention to diet whatsoever and say 'look they eat mcdonalds and meats and dairy and are unhealthy... thus eating meat and dairy is unhealthy'.

That is false and is propaganda.

You cannot judge eating meat or dairy (or veggies) by the masses of people who pay zero attention to any diet. We all know that group is horrendous in terms of diet and it is NOT simply because meat or dairy are part of that diet.

I rest my case with what you say here which supports what I said "It’s actually a hotly debated topics amongst vegans because many vegans say it isn’t inclusive and people should accept that vegans can be vegans for all sorts of reason."

You are basically saying 'only my view is correct. Forget that others hotly contest it.'

Yes.

Go watch the Wolves of Yellowstone and learn something as just one example of many.

Challenge yourself to get outside your dogmatic bubble and look at non propaganda info.

For example, if you know mankind, has driven out predators from a region due to encroachment (for vegan farms, etc) and that is lead to explosive prey animal populations such that the prey animal herds are getting sickly, diseased and destroying habitat for thousands of other animals and impacting the very lay of the land and damaging the ecology,mankind has a responsibility to step in and do the job of the predators they drove away.

A limited cull with meat provided to Charities and non profits who want and will utilize it, is best.

I have become increasingly concerned and suspicious of all factory farmed meats (antibiotic load, etc) and hesitate to call any of it 'healthy'.

Everytime citizens push for labeling requirements to educate the consumer, the industries push for ways around it to deceive the consumer. Factory farms now get 'Organic' and 'Free Run' and other such designations when few consumers would think their processes meet the requirements they are looking for.

it even bleeds into things such as 'no pesticides' in organic designation. The designation allows for dangerous levels of 'natural pesticides' concentrated by labs to the point where they are every bit as dangerous as lab produces chemicals, but they get to be 'organic as they are 'natural concentrations'.


BUt I would agree for much of the target audience who have no availability/budget for small family farm meats it can be 'healthy' compared to what they otherwise might be eating.

No. If you are against animal abuse then you wouldn’t go back on your diet bc it wouldn’t be about your diet. So anyone who does is considered never being vegan in first place.

It’s interesting to see the mental gymnastics necessary to rationalize killing animals needlessly.

I'm not making fun of you, or criticizing you for being vegan. I'm telling you to shut up for spouting pseudo-scientific nonsense and preaching,

If you ever get in an automobile or an airplane you are just a full of **** hypocrite.

If it works for you, then that's great. I haven't had any meat in well over three decades and haven't had any dairy for 6 years. I don't see either of those changing for me ever. To me, it's no big deal to take B12. The only other supp I take is D3 because taking D3 + using sunblock > skin cancer. This is the diet that I've found works best for my running needs - I don't purport it to be the best for anyone else, or even other runners - just what works best for me through experimentation over the years.

And that is the problem as I am very sympathetic to vagans, despite my point that their 'ethics have holes in them'.

Outside a forum like this where we are engaging purposely to discuss the topic I am not out looking to confront vegans. Every year I go more and more plant based so I cannot say where my journey will end. And I say 'to each their own. Do you and what works for you and your personal ethics'.

That said ethical vegans who get preachy based on dogma over logic and fact do irk me and many others and do far more harm than good in trying to convert people to the cause. They tend to polarize people and drive them in to camps. But i think that is kind of the point. Many would rather virtue signal and call names to contrast 'how good they are', 'their personal journey to purity', etc, than convince others.

But it’s really not what works for you...

Forcibly raping cows for dairy is immoral and if it were human people would be going to jail.

Animals are voiceless victims.

Lol cmon man you can’t just concede this mid argument.. it’s nice of you to concede the L on all fronts

It’s extremely difficult to convince others. It’s like trying to convince a drug addict they have a problem. But instead you’re a flesh and puss addict.

Until you’re ready to seek help and change your ways not much will happen.

I’ve sat here and tried to have patience for you but the trolling and same old questions and jokes and dumb logic get on a vegans last nerve. I’m no saint myself I’m imperfect. I really don’t know how to convince people. It’s hard to wake people up and red pill them. Cognitive dissonance sets in when you challenge people’s world view.

I will heed your advice and study up on how to convince people. It’s harder on an Internet forum. Face to face you could see I’m not crazy and I could try a little Socratic method on you to get yo to see for yourself.

It’s still near impossible to get through to someone who doesn’t want to or see a need to change themselves. Maybe it will take someone you have more respect for that’s already in your life to tell you what I’m telling you for it to stick.

Would like to know what the other diets that were compared..

Sounds like the Mediterranean diet was closest to vegan. It doesn’t advocate for tons of meat and dairy.

You said no one who eats meat can be a lefty in the other thread then whined when I told you I had some lamb chops and had that post removed.

You're just a religious fanatic. It has nothing to do with anyone else, health or otherwise. This is all about you and you're ego.

What part of “religion” says to go vegan?

Also please link quote for context

As far as me and my ego... so giving up something I used to like not for my own pleasure but out of respect to animals makes me ego driven? Bc i want to convert others bc I see animals as voiceless victims that makes it about my own personal ego?

This is way bigger than me or my ego

You've turned going vegan into your religion.

It's all about you at this point. That's why you'll never convert anyone.

Maybe one day you'll figure it out but no time soon.

Mediterrenean diet is not even close to a vegan diet but ok...

Let me google that for you.

TOP DIETS

You will see pages including rankings by hundreds of nutrition professionals and the Mediterranean diet ranked consistently #1, or at the top. Vegan diet generally ranks low due to the fact its not complete and requires supplementation.

It’s hard to convert addicts when they don’t want to change themselves

They ranked vegan low and cited “no social support”... and by looking in this thread that’s very true. I get ambushed at every turn.

But social support really has nothing to do with a diet.

Also flexitarian and Mediterranean start by listing fruits and vegetables as why they are highly ranked. So ya it’s basically a shade off veganism. Even Mediterranean concedes very little meat.

So as far as diets go I’m not convinced we’re even saying different things.

If the number one diet was Atkins then I would say that’s complete opposite of veganism but when the leading diet in your study says low meat it really doesn’t help your case.

High in fruits and vegetables and very little meat

Heavy on fish, pork and chicken though. A bit of lamb and veal too. Always pork fat in the. Lentils.

Still, what's your beef with supplementation? Many foods are fortified without most people knowing, so B12, the only real missing nutrient, can be had from the very popular cheese and butter substitute vegans use, nutritional yeast. A tablespoon or so covers you for the day, and it's like 30 calories, and they put like 5 tablespoons on their pasta. For me, cutting out dairy was 100% better than whatever negatives you can come up with for why supplementing is bad.