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Old 07-21-2021, 01:34 PM   #126
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson View Post
It's funny to me that anyone on either side tries to score points with Cuba. On one hand, Castro's unquestionably been a tyrannical dictator and Victor's "the US does it too!" deflections would embarrass a preschooler. On the other hand, the West's constant ****ing over of Cuba has been monstrous. The US embargo has produced generations of misery and accomplished nothing; anyone actually committed to capitalism should be demanding it be lifted.

No one points at Haiti or Jamaica and says "this proves capitalism doesn't work" but somehow it's a failure of Communism when Cuba's economy is in shambles after decades of ****ery from the superpower next door.
I have to say it: Great post, Trolly!
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Old 07-21-2021, 01:39 PM   #127
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

That's gotta be the longest post he's ever done. Credit where it's due though that post was indeed pretty good. If he were to make more thoughtful posts such as the one you highlighted, I might even consider taking him off ig.
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Old 07-21-2021, 01:39 PM   #128
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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This is what peeves me about the neo liberal dummies, they'll rail about all the human rights violations in communist countries (as they should) and then turn around and totally ignore the human rights violations that the US (a capitalist, imperialist nation) is responsible for.

It's like how Israel is now accusing Ben and Jerry's of antisemitism for not selling ice cream in the occupied territories.

At some point, everyone except you knows you're a piece of ****.
This is textbook whataboutism.
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Old 07-21-2021, 01:46 PM   #129
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

Indeed, not to mention dishonest as western atrocities have been condemned itt, albeit not by "neo liberal dummies".
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Old 07-21-2021, 01:48 PM   #130
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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That's gotta be the longest post he's ever done. Credit where it's due though that post was indeed pretty good. If he were to make more thoughtful posts such as the one you highlighted, I might even consider taking him off ig.
Trolly is often witty, but rarely as profound as in that post. Give us more like that, Trolly!
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Old 07-21-2021, 02:15 PM   #131
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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This is textbook whataboutism.
cries of "this is whataboutism!!!" is just a propaganda tactic to try and silence legitimate criticism, comparison, or contextualization
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Old 07-21-2021, 02:20 PM   #132
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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cries of "this is whataboutism!!!" is just a propaganda tactic to try and silence legitimate criticism, comparison, or contextualization
The reason whataboutism is a bad thing in debate is it just causes the conversation to go around in circles with much bickering about how This Thing is different from That Other Thing and little progress being made. However, given that most conversations about politics go around in circles without any of the participants budging an inch anyway, crack on.
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Old 07-21-2021, 02:26 PM   #133
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

Funny enough I can imagine socialists and tankies the mid 60s being super optimistic about about a socialist regime in Cuba free from US corporate sabotage thanks to the embargo . Of course since things didn’t exactly work out socialists are forced into the same finger pointing game that accompanies the aftermath of every socialist revolution.
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Old 07-21-2021, 04:04 PM   #134
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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This is textbook whataboutism.
Deflecting criticism about the US because Cuba went communist certainly is.
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Old 07-21-2021, 04:06 PM   #135
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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Funny enough I can imagine socialists and tankies the mid 60s being super optimistic about about a socialist regime in Cuba free from US corporate sabotage thanks to the embargo . Of course since things didnít exactly work out socialists are forced into the same finger pointing game that accompanies the aftermath of every socialist revolution.
Cuba was much better off being run by the mob ?

You guys really are dumb.
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Old 07-21-2021, 04:12 PM   #136
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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Deflecting criticism about the US because Cuba went communist certainly is.
I agree, but this thread is about Cuba. Start a thread criticising the US and I promise I won't mention Cuba in it.
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Old 07-21-2021, 04:17 PM   #137
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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I agree, but this thread is about Cuba. Start a thread criticising the US and I promise I won't mention Cuba in it.
I'm American, I feel entitled to criticize the US when and where I like.

You'd do well to have more actual Americans like me around .
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Old 07-21-2021, 04:29 PM   #138
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

This is what's happening in Cuba right now.

Important to understand is that these people are not protesting the USA, they are protesting their gov imo. Because they don't have enough resources. You could argue your ass off that the USA is responsible for this. It's not what the people Cuba are saying though. They are upset about their leaders at the moment. And the USA is not doing anything to help but pouring oil into the fire by cutting them off. We can talk about that but it's not helpful.

It's also important to note imo that you can't find any Cuban people, Youtubers, or activists talking about this on social media. That to me cries foul play. And that they are not free to talk.


Last edited by washoe; 07-21-2021 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 07-21-2021, 04:31 PM   #139
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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Originally Posted by ecriture d'adulte View Post
Funny enough I can imagine socialists and tankies the mid 60s being super optimistic about about a socialist regime in Cuba free from US corporate sabotage thanks to the embargo . Of course since things didnít exactly work out socialists are forced into the same finger pointing game that accompanies the aftermath of every socialist revolution.
Youíre saying socialists in the 60ís were pro-embargo?
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Old 07-21-2021, 04:37 PM   #140
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

And when you are saying the truth, you're a right winger. This is really pathetic.



And she's right! This is why you don't care about Cuba.



F north Korea, f Cuba! Imo or at least help them. It's all done on their backs.

Last edited by washoe; 07-21-2021 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 07-21-2021, 06:57 PM   #141
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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And when you are saying the truth, you're a right winger. This is really pathetic.
It is the norm of American politics to blame every evil on the other side, and even the slightest bit of nuance is not welcome.

But the world is nuanced.

Cuba's communist regime has been oppressive, corrupt and cruel and seized power in a revolution. Their economy is not a success story, it has in the past relied heavily on foreign aid, first from the Soviet Union who were eager to pump money into Cuba's economy to prop it up, and later from Venezuela. It tanked when the Soviet Union went belly up, and it tanked again when the Venezuelan aid stopped coming.

Still, Batista's regime prior to the communists was also oppressive, corrupt and cruel and seized power in coup, but carried the US' blessing. It was also Batista who toppled Cuba's last democratic government. His regime was not a success story either, but a thinly veiled kleptocracy who executed people who stood in the way of their theft.

So, obviously in a historic context, it is not opposition to tyrannic regimes that has dictated US policy towards Cuba.

Some politicians in the US want to hurt Cuba as hard economically as they can, to force a regime crash. Some want to soften relations to encourage local reforms. Most seem to want to demonize everybody else and argue that they are the only ones who care about Cuba, so they can gain more votes the coming election.
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Old 07-21-2021, 07:28 PM   #142
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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It is the norm of American politics to blame every evil on the other side, and even the slightest bit of nuance is not welcome.

But the world is nuanced.

Cuba's communist regime has been oppressive, corrupt and cruel and seized power in a revolution. Their economy is not a success story, it has in the past relied heavily on foreign aid, first from the Soviet Union who were eager to pump money into Cuba's economy to prop it up, and later from Venezuela. It tanked when the Soviet Union went belly up, and it tanked again when the Venezuelan aid stopped coming.

Still, Batista's regime prior to the communists was also oppressive, corrupt and cruel and seized power in coup, but carried the US' blessing. It was also Batista who toppled Cuba's last democratic government. His regime was not a success story either, but a thinly veiled kleptocracy who executed people who stood in the way of their theft.

So, obviously in a historic context, it is not opposition to tyrannic regimes that has dictated US policy towards Cuba.

Some politicians in the US want to hurt Cuba as hard economically as they can, to force a regime crash. Some want to soften relations to encourage local reforms. Most seem to want to demonize everybody else and argue that they are the only ones who care about Cuba, so they can gain more votes the coming election.
Yes, and that's exactly the problem. What I learned from this video is, Cuban are going nuts because of "Everything, hunger, shortage of medicine, power outs" "diaz-cartel" , hour long waiting to get food if anything is left and shortage of supplies.
You do not want to be there, and you don't want to get covid there or anything.


Trump was happy with these embargoes and they damaged Cuba's economy. And Biden is not doing a f to lift these embargoes despite the fact the people are dying there now and have no medicine or food. There is no human rights there is no mercy. All a bunch of hypocrates.

They have to stop with the finger pointing and do something. I thought Biden is the good guy. What's with all the human right talks? These embargoes according to the video is what's causing this. The gov is crooked as f too.



Last edited by washoe; 07-21-2021 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 07-21-2021, 07:36 PM   #143
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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Yes, and that's exactly the problem. What I learned from this video is, Cuban are going nuts because of "Everything, hunger, shortage of medicine, power outs" "diaz-cartel" , hour long waiting to get food if anything is left and shortage of supplies.
You do not want to be there, and you don't want to get covid there or anything.


Trump was happy with these embargoes and they damaged Cuba's economy. And Biden is not doing a f to lift these embargoes despite the fact the people are dying there now and have no medicine or food. There is no human rights there is no mercy. All a bunch of hypocrates.

They have to stop with the finger pointing and do something. I thought Biden is the good guy.
Food and medicine are not currently sanctioned by the embargo.

The Cuban regime simply doesn't have money to pay for them, and having defaulted on their debt twice in recent years , they don't have much in the way of raising money.
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Old 07-21-2021, 07:46 PM   #144
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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Food and medicine are not currently sanctioned by the embargo.

The Cuban regime simply doesn't have money to pay for them, and having defaulted on their debt twice in recent years , they don't have much in the way of raising money.
I am not doubting any of this. They wanted to crash the economy through these sanctions and embargoes according to this video. They were successful. The video points out that as soon as there were really suffering those bans should have been lifted. So I think some blame has to be shifted on America. That's not to say the Cuban gov are doing everything right. It is a totalitarian regime, a one party government and really everything is restricted and controlled. Every media outlet to internet the people are controlled. That's why you do not see and reporting from people like we would see from a normal country. I have to feel bad for them.
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Old 07-21-2021, 07:53 PM   #145
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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I am not doubting any of this. They wanted to crash the economy through these sanctions and embargoes according to this video. They were successful. The video points out that as soon as there were really suffering those bans should have been lifted. So I think some blame has to be shifted on America. That's not to say the Cuban gov are doing everything right. It is a totalitarian regime, a one party government and really everything is restricted and controlled. Every media outlet to internet the people are controlled. That's why you do not see and reporting from people like we would see from a normal country. I have to feel bad for them.
The sanctions obviously have an effect which is damaging to the Cuban economy.

Still, Cuba also tried to get in place nuclear weapons aimed at American cities in the early '60s. That's generally a poor choice unless the local political situation makes it feasible (like the various diplomatic nightmares bordering the former Soviet Union) and will tend to color your relationship with a neighbor.

And sure, some would say that is a long time ago, but consider that Raul Castro just this year left Cuban politics. The original regime was very much in power until just recently.
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Old 07-21-2021, 08:00 PM   #146
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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Still, Batista's regime prior to the communists was also oppressive, corrupt and cruel and seized power in coup, but carried the US' blessing. It was also Batista who toppled Cuba's last democratic government. His regime was not a success story either, but a thinly veiled kleptocracy who executed people who stood in the way of their theft.
Of course you're completely correct wrt to the US. But at the end of the day talking about Bautista in a 2021 Cuba thread is like discussing the role Tsar Nicholas' failures played in enabling Stalin's purges.

It's a bit ridiculous for revolutionaries who completely overthrew the existing government to now justify failure by pointing at the previous guys. They only got in power because the previous guys sucked.... in fact making a critical mass hyper-aware of the flaws of the existing government was how they gained control to begin with!
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Old 07-21-2021, 08:23 PM   #147
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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Of course you're completely correct wrt to the US. But at the end of the day talking about Bautista in a 2021 Cuba thread is like discussing the role Tsar Nicholas' failures played in enabling Stalin's purges.

It's a bit ridiculous for revolutionaries who completely overthrew the existing government to now justify failure by pointing at the previous guys. They only got in power because the previous guys sucked.... in fact making a critical mass hyper-aware of the flaws of the existing government was how they gained control to begin with!
Certainly, it just seemed to be a running theme in the thread, which is why I commented on it. History can certainly illustrate something, but it can also become a trapping or an excuse to continue bad policy.

The current regime should be judged for its own actions, which are pretty much what you would expect of a Leninist regime; Knee-jerk reactions because the party is never to blame, doing so is sedition and sedition is punished.

As for US-Cuban relations, I don't expect them to warm up anytime soon. I can't imagine many US politicians wanting to look "soft on Cuba" right about now, and the Cuban regime is going to want to blame the US for all its woes and admit as little error as possible (they might sacrifice a few local names, but the party won't admit to much).
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Old 07-21-2021, 09:46 PM   #148
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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Yes, and that's exactly the problem. What I learned from this video is, Cuban are going nuts because of "Everything, hunger, shortage of medicine, power outs" "diaz-cartel" , hour long waiting to get food if anything is left and shortage of supplies.
You do not want to be there, and you don't want to get covid there or anything.


Trump was happy with these embargoes and they damaged Cuba's economy. And Biden is not doing a f to lift these embargoes despite the fact the people are dying there now and have no medicine or food. There is no human rights there is no mercy. All a bunch of hypocrates.

They have to stop with the finger pointing and do something. I thought Biden is the good guy. What's with all the human right talks? These embargoes according to the video is what's causing this. The gov is crooked as f too.


Your YouTube videos are largely bullshit. Most people in Cuba support the gov.
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Old 07-21-2021, 09:50 PM   #149
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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Food and medicine are not currently sanctioned by the embargo.

The Cuban regime simply doesn't have money to pay for them, and having defaulted on their debt twice in recent years , they don't have much in the way of raising money.
I mean, Cuba developed their own Covid vaccine. so like, ya maybe they couldnt pay for it, but obv buying it from Western Pharma was cost prohibitive. economic freedom is freedom.

and since a small island nation was able to develop their own vaccine in a very short amount of time, it kinda blows holes in the narrative that its some backward repressive society.

I am skeptical of the whole food and medicine are not embargoed.
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Old 07-21-2021, 11:25 PM   #150
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Re: Mass Protests Break Out in Cuba

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Your YouTube videos are largely bullshit. Most people in Cuba support the gov.
Actually you're right. I'm did a little bit of reading on another forum. This is a user on this question.

"What do most Cubans think about their government?"



"Any citizen of any country will be proud of their country. There is no exceptions. I guess that the Cuban living in Cuba must be proud to live in Cuba and be a Cuban . I have met many Cuban when I go to an international conference and I see they behave as if their country is the best. Of course they like to have luxury items , but if everybody has all the same luxuries there is no jealousy among the people. Of course the opinion of the USA is from those exile Cubans. They are fanatics, they are against anything Castro or Cuba. But look at the Pope , he is an Argentinian and he doesn’t condemned the Cuban, They are all Catholics. We are NOT the Lord and has to judge people to our standards. Obama was trying to open this country, but this administration continue wants to punish these poor people.

[If you study history, Fidel was not a communist when he made the coup =- however the US government choose Batista’s side and Castro has to go to Nikita.]

The people from Latin America, many of them admire the Cuban. A country under isolation by the USA but still manage to survive and give their population a decent living standard. Compared to many countries in Latin America especially those natives or those of color other than white, envy the Cuban people and their struggle for their country. This is the reason why many people in Venezuela, Columbia [ Chez Guevara], Bolivia, Chili, Peru and also those in Brasil want to have social equality like in Cuba. [Just to tell you the truth the Drug trafficking is the result of the injustice in Latin America] I have been to many OAS meetings and I know the climate among them all. Compared to Cuba, countries like Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador are just like hell. Nicaragua has a socialist government once but because of the Monroe doctrine it returns to capitalist. However now it is Daniel Ortega again the socialist that is president. Just think why is he back and the people choose him.

We as an outsider could not and may not judge another country and classify them as something bad or poor. We don’t like communism because it will destroy the fighting spirit of the population. We don’t like to live on the brink of starvation, We don’t like to live under a totalitarian regime. However those people have no better choice so they have to like their system. Remember the crime rate in Cuba is relative very small compared to the US or to Columbia or any other country in the America’s. [there is nothing to rob or steal]

Our question must be : Why aren’t we condemning the Saudis. Their women are forbidden to drive , cannot go out without a male family member, their schooling is limited. Why is the government not putting sanctions on the Saudis for murdering a US permanent resident. This administration is even praising the dictators and handle them with soft gloves. The Saudis are the reason that we have all those Muslim fanatics all over the world bombing anyone and everyone. Try to visit their peninsula as a non Muslim. You are a pariah in that country. and if you work for them you are forced to live in the ghetto for foreigners with the excuse for our own safety.

Back to the question.

A Cuban could ask an American [US] citizen - do they like this government. You have two possible answers to choose, depending on your color, ethnic group, religion, education level, location where you live and income level.

I hope the person asking will realize how silly this question is or sound"

https://www.quora.com/What-do-most-C...eir-government


So yeah, among other things, he is basically saying there that the USA would turn Cuba into Haiti, into el Salvador or Mexico with a high crime rate, the cartels ruling, and into a complete sbithole of a Latin country as per usual as the USA does. He is probably right.

Last edited by washoe; 07-21-2021 at 11:49 PM.
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