Hamas latest proposal

Stage 1 6 weeks
Israel withdraws completely. People move back to North unimpeded. Hamas looks for hostages
Stage 2 6 weeks
Hamas releases x hostages in exchange of 30x prisoners. They don't know what x is
Stage 3
Whatever hostages are left are freed for 30x prisoners. Israel still is withdrawn. Hamas stays in power and begins planning their next attack on Israel


In case you aren't sure

I agree that the saudi reaction to the Iran attack solidifies that Israel and Saudi are legit allies and the official normalization deal will happen

Westerns love war. this is the perfect war for them. we have spent our entire lives being bombarded with anti-Arab propaganda. people are just itching for more mass murder.

Those pesky jews keep surviving! Im sorry you are so disappointed

Im not the one advocating for mass murder of anyone. thats you and your bloodthirsty warmongers however.

wouldn't doing nothing create a future for more mass murders of jewish israelis?

I guarantee Biden isn’t chomping at the bit to do anything in the Middle East.

He’s fundamentally isolationist and conflict avoidant to the core. His priority has always been to keep American troops as far away from conflict as possible.

He just wants this, like he does for every other foreign conflict, to go away.

Biden is nothing like an isolationist. He is averse to getting embroiled in a war with a nuclear power, as most rational humans would naturally be.

Israel and the totalitarian state of Saudi Arabia are theoretical allies. Not sure if this extends to the people or not, and this is an important distinction. In some ways totalitarian states are actually more beholden to the wishes of the people if things go sideways, so any allies/normalizations should be considered fraught at best.

Generally, the Arab people are extremely antisemitic for religious reasons. Liberals dont like to bring this up because it doesn't fit the narrative, but the Medina Koran is word for word more antisemitic than Mein Kampf. It is actually extremely hard to be a devout Muslim and not also be an extreme antisemite and antagonistic towards Israel. The entire concept that dhimni (who are by definition second class citizens) could form their own state in what is considered Holy Land is extremely blasphemous.

That is not to say one cannot be a Muslim and not be an antisemite; it just requires not following certain aspects of religious doctrine.

Iran on the other hand is pretty much the opposite. The regime is extremely antisemetic for religious reasons; but the populace generally is not religious and has no special antagonism towards Israel. Obviously, the regime is trying to change this by increasing tensions with Israel, so the Iranian people become antagonistic towards Israel for secular reasons.

Ironically, if Arab countries became truly democratic; they would probably elect governments that look like Yemen as far as their attitudes towards Israel. Which is why absolutely no one is pushing for democracy in the Middle East right now.

nope. maybe you noticed the people doing all the mass murder in the last 6 months were the Israelis. also in every year prior they murdered 100s or thousands of civilians intentionally.

How could they when while they were being ethnically cleansed? 300k were expelled before May 15.

Originally Posted by rafiki
I genuinely believe that if in 1948 the response had been "ok peace it is", we'd have no issues today.

--Also, that is like saying if the Nazis weren't so antisemitic the Holocaust wouldn't' have happened. Throwing Jews, British and Communists out of the Middle East was the actually point of the Arab fascist nationalization movement. That is why they were so sympatic to the Nazis. Their core objectives were perfectly aligned.

There was no scenario where the answer was going to be "ok." It was antithetical to the movement itself.

Nothing I've discussed has anything to do with American troops in the middle east. That's not what this pact would be.

Bill they were invited to live in Israel. That's not ethnic cleansing.

What actually is an attempt to get to zero Jews is what happened to Jews from 1880 to the 40's in Israel though. Specially when the Arabs passed on the deal where the Jews would have gotten only 17% of the present territory (remember that?). That's essentially saying "no, zero is the amount of Jews we're ok with".

It's intellectually dishonest to gloss over that. It's intellectually dishonest to gloss over how aligned the Arabs were with Nazi ideas too (publicly so).

Every step the Arabs took from the 1880's onward telegraphed that "no Jews" was the correct amount of Jews for them in Israel (and the constant pogroms also telegraph this). And in this thread we constantly skip these facts. Whereas with the Israeli declaration of independence, Arabs were told they could definitely stay.

No Jews, no British, no Communists. This was pretty much the entire foundation of the Arab fascist nationalist movement during this time period.

Quote please
Actions speak louder than words. Yes it’s dad
This is a lie. They waged a guerilla warfare campaign against the British , and when they defeated the British, the British left and the nakba began.

I posted the quotes and wiki links. You didn’t read them?

Probably not but there’s a lot a nation can do between nothing and bombing everyone in Gaza

“During this period the British still maintained a declining rule over Palestine and occasionally intervened in the violence.[20][21] Towards the end of the civil war phase, Zionist forces executed Plan Dalet, an offensive operation conquering territory for the planned establishment of a Jewish state.[22]“


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948...ere%20expelled.



“ A successful paramilitary campaign, sometimes referred to as the Palestine Emergency, was carried out by Zionist underground groups against British rule in Mandatory Palestine from 1944 to 1948. The tensions between the Zionist underground and the British mandatory authorities rose from 1938 and intensified with the publication of the White Paper of 1939. The Paper outlined new government policies to place further restrictions on Jewish immigration and land purchases, and declared the intention of giving independence to Palestine, with an Arab majority, within ten years. ”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewi...tory_Palestine

lol, the Nabka was a textbook example of ethnic cleansing, be serious.

Twitter and tiktok are streams of anecdotes. And it's not a random sampling. It can have news items, but there's no way it's a representative population. And both you and people like mets do this. Someone could very easily post a stream of comments from Palestine activists saying all Jews everywhere should be boiled in oil. Very easily.

The actual polls are bad enough. The anecdotes are ridic. I don't want to have to find tiktoks or whatevers of people calling for peace from both sides and just flood this thread with them, but maybe I should. I'm sure I could find 50 of them every day if I wanted. Actually after a day it'd be easy and the algorithms would do all the work.

Nakba denial. really vile stuff.

israel has confirmed that some hezbollah jerkoff got owned today

In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to return to the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, with full and equal citizenship and due representation in its bodies and institutions -- provisional or permanent.

We offer peace and unity to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.


That Trolly, is attempting to have a peaceful region. That's right out of the declaration of independence. Full and equal citizenship. They (the Arabs) were made an offer, they refused. Then they invaded.

We both know how differently it could have gone. What the Hamastans never seem to want to do is ask what might have happened if better choices were made.

What if they Arabs agreed and gave the Jews the 17%?

What if the Arabs put down arms on independence, and came to live as citizens?

What if Camp David had been accepted?

What if Gazans put down their weapons in 2005 and worked towards turning Gaza into something?


Why do we always ignore the key moments where better choices save the region?

--As opposed to this?

Always good to keep in mind the people in this part of the world (including the majority of Palestinians) think ethnic cleansing is good, they just think they have a God given mandate to be the only ones doing it.

If you are a western leftist that opposes the state of Israel and/or its actions on fist principle grounds, that is fine. But you also have to realize your Arab/Muslim "allies" have no first principle concerns; you are just a useful pawn for them to realize their own desires for ethnic cleansing/genocide.

On top of the Arab fascist nationalist movement, of which ethnic cleansing is a big component of; the nation of Turkey itself has been on a century long project of removing non ethnic Muslim Turks, killing millions and displacing millions more. And this is on top of the Muslim Arab militias displacing millions in Africa.

Saying you want peace and acting like you want peace are two different things


What if the pro Israeli people hadn’t done a coup against the British?