Yes I mean no one in this thread.

The challenge here is the question has changed so many times over since '48. The answer to that changed every 5 years. The OG version was effectively pretty close to 1-state, wouldn't you say?

Since then you're right. It's been lamentable.

I am Jewish and half-israeli. I do not see myself as gaslit into my current position. If anything I see the people of Israel as having been gaslit by decades of fascism governments and a media that convinces them that an existential threat justifies anything in the name of self-defence. A government that has cracked down on dissent. A country that started off on socialist principles and has now become a capitalist dream. My family who still live in Israel were very socialist, and now they abide by capitalist, nationalist principles. There are PLENTY of jews around the world who are decrying the actions of the IDF and loudly saying that they do not want to be associated with their genocidal actions. The media has largely sought to silence those voices and instead magnify those most rabid. This is gaslighting.

Theocratic ethnostates should not exist. Well, taking it further, states should not exist, but if states are to exist, the ones we should not tolerate are the theocratic ethnostates. That the muslims get their own theocratic ethnostate is not a justification for Israel existing in that guise. Jews should obviously get a place of refuge when antisemitism is an ever present, but there's absolutely no reason it should be Israel. I say this as the grandson of polish jews who fled Auschwitz and settled in Qiryat Haim in 1948 (I believe).

While some have engaged in antisemitic tropes and peddled ignorance, you should not take that as justification or excusing the actions of not just the IDF, but in the defenders of the IDF.

You should talk about and rather learn about the hundreds of thousands of Jews in Israel that protest their own government in the streets in support of Palestine. Irs crazy. They have a far right too you know? and they don't like that.

Don't blame him. Thats what he is fed.

Yeah! right on! tell those nippleheads what they don't know!
libtards think they know everything but they really don't or are hypocrates.

Tell them you would be one of the hundreds of thousands of Jews protesting in Israel against apartheid, right?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023...eform_protests

That's Israel u donks! have a read!

I feel this forum has taught me a lot in this regard (maybe in regard to rafiki's post?). Goes back to a time when I think sklansky or mason, or a red hat, made an nvg thread that went something along the lines of "Why are amount of poker champs overwhelmingly jewish?" Might have been even worded more controversial etc. At the time it struck me as obviously unfair, thinking if I made a similar comment I would be exiled at as the worst murderous criminal ever. But I really quickly realized my initial thoughts were silly and untrue. Perhaps part of the intent of the thread. In this forum, my understanding is anti-semetic posts are viewed as unclassy, unintellectual, and spammy-rather than the highest level of blasphemy.

If 'the jews are in control' here, you CAN totally criticize that, and you can boast about jewish success in counter response as well, which is equally as fair. I feel like that thread really helped me understand many things that i don't' have the time to travel the world to understand.

And in response to other points and sentiments...

I think its rather natural human response, if there are for example people, jews (but its not a jewish things imo) that feel incredible passion and defensiveness for their boundaries, as a response to the division of them. Simply the existence of the division. I think this is very understandable when one observes that division but without trying to solve it.

I sort of learned that from a jewish elder, can't remember what video, but he was angry, if you were anti-Semitic you would point to this person as your stereo-type, and he was saying 'you are anti-semetic if you try to solve the problem or offer a solution'. It's none of your business he said. And I really saw the truth in that I think.

Because they want it ALL. Barring that they will cage up Palestinian areas.

When I was landing in Tel Aviv in March the lady next to me looked out the window and said "isn't it beautiful? God gave it to us." (which is very curious logic and makes zero sense).

Boulton have a read and tell them.

"Hundreds of thousands march in Israel against Netanyahu's judicial overhaul

But their critics say the plan will destroy the country's system of checks and balances and put it on the path toward authoritarian rule."


Guess he was right:

"The legislation is crushing those things shared by Israeli society, is tearing the people apart, disintegrating the IDF and inflicting fatal blows on Israel's security," the former officials wrote.



https://www.npr.org/2023/07/22/11896...yahu-judiciary

Well when I heard about the Russia-Iran arms deal, I recall thinking Putin can't risk Iran getting involved a military conflict. Of course all due to the conflict Putin got embroiled with in Ukraine, which he likely wouldn't have knowing the West's response.

Yeah it is when you were all "Oh the British army shot plenty of civilians too dontchaknow" when I pointed out how the IRA deliberately killed civilians, as if that somehow excused the Provos deliberate targeting of civilians and I'm not interested in your semantic play on words either re whataboutism. Your whole North comparison was really just your gussied up way of saying Israel bad, cuz it's really all their fault at the end of the day innit? Whether their civilians are slaughtered or not and when they react you'll find fault in that too because reasons.

That's not what I was doing and I will not accept any responsibility for you intentionally taking me as saying something that I definitely did not say

In some ways it doesn't make sense. But we are biologically hardwired for this. Once we feel that something of ourselves is being unjustly threatened the firmware structure of our brain changes. Thats why presenting someone with the solution to their land is infuriating-it makes you want to throw a rock at the solver.


Russia has been loudly and specifically stating the whole time that they are doing this preemptively against Nato's invasion. I think then it would be weird to say they were unware that the west would underhandedly fight thru proxy/ukraine.

God does not exist, and religion is poison. Should have been your answer to her

I don't get what you're doing in
Israel in the first place if you don't even respect the faith of its people.

Seems silly. I assume most Israelis are pretty secular.

Do you think Israel is a theocracy?

And why would any right-minded person ever respect someone else's belief in a sky daddy?

Secular doesn't mean non religious imo.


'In 2022, 45% of Israel Jews self-identified as "secular"; 10% as haredi (ultra-orthodox); 33% as masorti ( lit. 'traditional'); and 12% as dati ( lit. 'religious' or 'orthodox', including religious zionist). Of the Arab Israelis, as of 2008, 82.7% were Muslims, 8.4% were Druze, and 8.3% were Christians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki
Religion in Israel - Wikipedia'

pretty much now, definitely.

How come you're an atheist Jewish person? How many of these are in israel you think?

Maybe iyo, but not ido. In fact, that's pretty much exactly what it means.

You literally just posted stats that 45% of Israeli's identify as secular.

I'm Jewish by ancestry. My parents and grandparents aren't religious; my ancestors beyond that, no idea, never met them.

They are basing their right of the land
exclusively on religion. what more arguments do you need?

How religious are bibi and his followers?

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion...us-commitment/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_secularism

=means less religious imo, not ultra orthodox, more open to the world but still can be religious.
similar to The protestants ... in Christianity.
I'll have to ask my Jewish friends.
What does it mean if you wear a
David star? is that secular? why would someone convert to Jewism and then not be religious?

Huh? Should I have not gone to Petra because Jordan is almost all Muslim?

Religion has no bearing at all in where I go.

This is literally the second paragraph in the link you just posted: