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Israel/Palestine thread Israel/Palestine thread

10-13-2023 , 11:02 AM
BOIDS, Jaz and wazz,

I hate to be cynical, but I asked the question precisely because I also fear that the answer is no. And the evidence suggests that most world leaders agree, which is one reason why it has been a long time since the leader of any world power has burned political capital on an active attempt to broker a solution.
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10-13-2023 , 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by washoe
According to all sources there isn't a solution.

The only solution would be the 2 state solution imo. there is nothing else.
I am skeptical that a 2-state solution exists that is politically viable for both Israeli and Palestinian leadership.
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10-13-2023 , 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Rococo
I think that he was talking about the violence directed toward Muslims in the U.S., not abroad, but I still don't agree with what he said. I live in NYC. After 9/11, I wondered how the city would treat its Muslim population. There obviously were incidents and violence, some serious, but the overall response wasn't as bad as I feared it might be. I knew tons of New Yorkers who actively reached out to Muslims they knew in the city to reassure them that they were welcome and not remotely responsible for the attacks.

Even so, it's ridiculous for Kelhus to suggest that a victory lap is in order. Refraining from attacking people because they share a religion with plane hijackers isn't a heroic gesture. It's basic decency.
It is not about taking a victory lap. It is about having a basic understanding of history and human psychology. There is very little of either being displayed in this thread IMO.

Is there any historical example, or even a non Western country in the world today, where the level of decency you describe would be expected after 9/11?

No.

If you feel like the moral code the Western world developed post WWII is generally good, then that is fine. I would tend to agree with you. But I dont think it is productive and it is wildly inaccurate to assume this code is the historical norm, or even widely adopted today in the non Western world. And if you think the Western moral code is cynical, and something to selectively believe in when convenient and to be discarded when not, then that is fine too.

As we discussed earlier; Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together mostly peacefully in the Middle East under Muslim domination for hundreds of years. There were occasional acts of violence against Jews and Christians by Muslims, but nothing out of the ordinary for that time. Then in the 20th century because of perceived injustices happening against Muslims in other parts of the world, the Muslims in the Middle East decided on collective punishment; and the historical Jewish and Christian societies were pogrommed out of existence. I would say historically, this is the norm when minority groups upset the majority (even if the individuals being punished did nothing wrong themselves), and the general tolerance Muslims received in the US post 9/11 is the historical aberration.

And the Israel position towards the Palestinians is somewhere in the middle. Of course it is a perverse irony that by Israel not making life so untenable the Palestinians are forced to leave entirely like most of the Christians and Jews in the Middle East did (and the rest of the world conspiring to not let them leave) that the amount of suffering has been tremendously amplified.

Last edited by Dunyain; 10-13-2023 at 11:20 AM.
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10-13-2023 , 11:07 AM
Exactly.

Why isn't UN or anyone stepping in?

I mean Hamas/Israel blew up hundreds of children now. One side I even used chemicals.
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10-13-2023 , 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
And the evidence suggests that most world leaders agree, which is one reason why it has been a long time since the leader of any world power has burned political capital on an active attempt to broker a solution.
With a caveat that "world leaders" tend not to stake their reputations on trying to fix problems with a low (though not zero) expectation of success, so they seek easier wins elsewhere.
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10-13-2023 , 11:10 AM
You may disagree, but I think it very dangerous to misunderstand and discount history. There is plenty of history to suggest that 21st century tribal progressive identity politics isn't going to work, and all it is going to do is breed distrust and resentment and conflict. Making up some mythology of the evil white colonizer and the noble BIPOC savage, and ignoring where history (and empirical observation) suggests this is all taking us, is a real bad idea IMO.

Last edited by Dunyain; 10-13-2023 at 11:17 AM.
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10-13-2023 , 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Rococo
In an attempt to generate a real discussion, I'll ask the hardest question:

Is there a durable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that is politically viable for both Israeli and Palestinian leadership? (I'm talking about the broader conflict, not the immediate war.) If so, what does that solution look like?

I ask because assigning blame isn't a solution and rewriting history isn't possible. Imagine that you are the prime minister of Israel or the political leader of the Palestinian people. What exactly would you do, keeping in mind that you are not going to be able to cram down a solution that is widely opposed by your own supporters.
I don't think there is a viable solution that people will accept. I think it's zero sum and if you give something you palestine you take something from israel.
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10-13-2023 , 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dunyain
it is wildly inaccurate to assume this code is the historical norm
Historical norms in this type of situation are largely irrelevant across the time scales you are describing. To state the obvious, information is disseminated much more efficiently in the modern world than it was 500-1000 years ago.
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10-13-2023 , 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by jalfrezi
With a caveat that "world leaders" tend not to stake their reputations on trying to fix problems with a low (though not zero) expectation of success, so they seek easier wins elsewhere.
Correct.
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10-13-2023 , 11:16 AM
best thing which could happen is for an alien ship to come along and scoop up Jerusalem - after the evacuation of the people that live there of course - such that there's nothing left but a 20 mile deep hole

then again they'd probably kill each other's children over who gets to look into the hole
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10-13-2023 , 11:20 AM
This is no more about religion than NI is.
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10-13-2023 , 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by washoe
Exactly.

Why isn't UN or anyone stepping in?

I mean Hamas/Israel blew up hundreds of children now. One side I even used chemicals.
Because the Western World is confused by bad progressive ideas about supporting the noble savage fighting for his homeland against the evil colonizer. And the non Western world is cynically supporting these bad ideas for their own ends.
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10-13-2023 , 12:00 PM
A little of what's been happening in the West Bank since Gaza has had most of the focus:

https://archive.ph/lJo2n

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Ibrahim Wadi and his 26-year-old son travelled to Qusra, a village near Nablus in the occupied West Bank, on Wednesday for the funeral of four Palestinian men killed in a shooting by Israeli settlers.

By the afternoon, they too were dead, gunned down by Israeli settlers who descended on the funeral, according to the Palestinian health ministry.

At least 120 West Bank Palestinians were killed this year, either by Israel’s military or armed settlers, before Saturday’s deadly Hamas assault in Israel, according to data from local authorities, as Israel has launched almost daily raids. This makes it one of the most violent periods for the territory since the end of the Second intifada, or uprising, in 2005.

A further 31 have been killed since Saturday, when thousands of armed Hamas militants broke through the Gaza border fence on the other side of the country and killed at least 1,200 Israeli civilians and soldiers — the worst attack inside the Jewish state since it came into existence.

Among Israelis and Palestinians alike, there is outrage at the mounting death toll: Israelis at the grotesque images from the massacres, and the nightmare of at least 150 survivors being held hostage in Gaza, and Palestinians at the ongoing aerial bombardment of their brethren in the teeming coastal enclave. Gazan officials say at least 1,448 people have been killed there since Saturday.

Seven days into what Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed to be a “prolonged” campaign against Hamas in Gaza, there is a febrile atmosphere in the West Bank, which includes East Jerusalem, with daily shootings of Palestinians and an extraordinary Israeli military security blanket. Even before Hamas’s attack there were concerns that a third intifada could be about to erupt.

Friday prayers at the al-Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem, a perennial flashpoint between devout Muslims and the Israeli military that has controlled the site since 1967, threaten to inflame the situation further. Al-Aqsa is Islam’s third holiest site and known to Palestinians as Haram al-Shari. The compound is known to Israelis as the Temple Mount and is Judaism’s holiest site.

Two years ago, an 11-day war erupted between Hamas and Israel, after the militant group fired rockets at Jerusalem while settlers marched through the Old City in their annual show of force to celebrate the capture of Jerusalem in the 1967 war.

Israeli checkpoints have also made it difficult for West Bank Palestinians to travel to al-Aqsa. On Friday, Israeli border police restricted access to the mosque to those under the age of 50, and blocked access to the Old City itself to all but residents, leaving the mosque compound emptier than usual.

“Gaza was standing for Jerusalem in 2021,” said Rasem Abidat, a columnist for the Al Quds newspaper. “Now, Jerusalem has to stand for Gaza, even as we deal with the settlers, the evictions, the beatings of people trying to pray and the daily atrocities of the occupation.”

Rightwing Israeli political leaders have enraged Muslims by pushing for expanded Jewish access to the site, including allowing them to pray under the protection of armed Israeli police.

“The people here are so angry, but we are also so afraid. This is a war,” said Abu Najib Hazem, a shopkeeper near the Damascus Gate entrance to the Old City. “The West Bank is closed, and now they can’t come to the mosque to pray.”

Across the West Bank, Palestinians fearful of incursions by Israeli soldiers into their villages have built rudimentary fortifications. Amid concern of possible unrest spreading to the West Bank as its army is preoccupied with its Gaza campaign, Israel has clamped down on roads and re-enforced checkpoints, cutting off movement for millions of Palestinians. Some of the Palestinian fatalities in the West Bank over the past week followed alleged attacks on Israeli security forces in the territory.

That has come as armed Israeli settlers have opened fire on unarmed Palestinians on several occasions, while the Israeli military, which administers the West Bank and is responsible for the safety of its Palestinian population, has yet to make arrests or, in some occasions, refused to step in to stop the attacks.

Israel’s rightwing national security minister Itamar Ben-Gvir said on Tuesday that he would hand out at least 10,000 rifles and body armour to Jews manning civilian security teams in West Bank settlements, and in Israeli cities with mixed populations of Arabs and Jews. Settlers already have the highest rates of licensed gun ownership.

A spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces, asked about the deaths this week in the West Bank, said he had no information to share. Earlier in the week, a different spokesman, Richard Hecht, stressed that in the West Bank, “The IDF is the sovereign. I repeat again, the IDF is the sovereign.”

Israel spent much of the past year trying to root out budding militant groups in the West Bank, including one named Lion’s Den, which it accused of carrying out dozens of attacks, some fatal, on settlers and military personnel. That operation in Nablus, a hot-bed of Palestinian militancy, is far from complete.

The Israeli military surge comes alongside a temporary leap in support for Hamas in the West Bank, parts of which are governed by its rival Fatah — the relatively secular party of the late Yassir Arafat, and the preferred interlocutor of both Israel and the West.

Hamas normally has the support of about a third of the total Palestinian population, but that tends to leap by 10-15 per cent during Hamas operations or Israeli bombings of Gaza, said Khalil Shikaki, director of the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research. “It has to do with the public perception that Hamas is the defender of Palestinian rights, that Israel understands nothing but the language of force, and that negotiations are futile,” he said.

The swell of support for Hamas puts Fatah in a quandary. Its leaders are viewed as weak, corrupt and ineffective by the majority of Palestinians, and condemning Hamas would further weaken its standing. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas this week toed a middle-line, saying: “We reject the practices of killing civilians or abusing them on both sides because they contravene morals, religion and international law.”

In East Jerusalem, Saturday’s brutal Hamas massacre that included women, children and the elderly, has prompted soul searching, but not condemnation.

“For us, every Israeli is a soldier, because the entire country is wearing uniforms,” said Samer Bakri, owner of a popular Turkish restaurant. “Why don’t people see that Israel has been killing children and women? We’re not just talking about Saturday. How many innocent people have they killed?”

Abidat, the columnist, said the rise in support for Hamas was based on a generational memory of Israeli atrocities against Palestinians leading back to the formation of the Jewish state.
“Think back to 1948 [and] the massacres in Tantura and Deir Yassin,” he said, both sites where Zionist paramilitary groups killed hundreds of Palestinian civilians. “You have to see the whole picture, and the crimes they conducted before you condemn us.”

For West Bankers, who have watched Jewish settlements surge to nearly 700,000 inhabitants, the coming retaliation against Palestinians could include more loss of land, warned a western diplomat who has worked to mediate between both parties for two decades.

“The [unwritten] rules here has always been that if the Palestinians kill a settler, the Israelis take a hill,” he said, referring to illegal Jewish outposts that are later legalised as punishment for the attack.

“With what has happened, the Israelis don’t want Gaza, but [large parts of the] West Bank are there to be taken.”
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10-13-2023 , 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
BOIDS, Jaz and wazz,

I hate to be cynical, but I asked the question precisely because I also fear that the answer is no. And the evidence suggests that most world leaders agree, which is one reason why it has been a long time since the leader of any world power has burned political capital on an active attempt to broker a solution.
The answer is probably yes. There's an old joke with a bit of profundity in it about how to get somewhere with the answer being not to start from here.

One possible solution is similar to the impossble problem of ireland. Both sides voluntarily join a bigger union and the differences gradually disappear. Yes I know that's going backwards recently but it was a working solution and may be again one day. One of the reasons I was so pro-EU was that it allows solution to these very long standing seemingly intractable problems.

On the longer game regarding israel and the palesitinians it was one of the reasons I wanted turkey to join the eu. It doesn't have to be the EU, any successful union that people want to join can do it.

It's pie in thr sky now but not so long ago it was pie in the sky in europe.

Last edited by chezlaw; 10-13-2023 at 12:10 PM.
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10-13-2023 , 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
In an attempt to generate a real discussion, I'll ask the hardest question:

Is there a durable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that is politically viable for both Israeli and Palestinian leadership? (I'm talking about the broader conflict, not the immediate war.) If so, what does that solution look like?

I ask because assigning blame isn't a solution and rewriting history isn't possible. Imagine that you are the prime minister of Israel or the political leader of the Palestinian people. What exactly would you do, keeping in mind that you are not going to be able to cram down a solution that is widely opposed by your own supporters?
The answer is obviously yes, but who knows when. The world is absolutely full of coexisting people who are descended from other people who were at war and disputing territory. In 5 years? Virtually no chance. In 30 years? Sometimes a really surprising amount of things change in 30 years. Not that South Africa is close to perfect, but it's changed a lot in that time. At some point in the future anyway, things will be bad, and then 30 years from then, they will be a lot better. That is unless the whole region is uninhabitable and largely under water because of warming or we're all dead because of nuclear war or killed by skynet before then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rococo
I am skeptical that a 2-state solution exists that is politically viable for both Israeli and Palestinian leadership.
2-state solution is less viable than 1-state imo. For there to be a reasonably functional separate Palestinian state, hundreds of thousands of people have to be moved and lots of infrastructure built.
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10-13-2023 , 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by microbet
The answer is obviously yes, but who knows when. The world is absolutely full of coexisting people who are descended from other people who were at war and disputing territory. In 5 years? Virtually no chance. In 30 years? Sometimes a really surprising amount of things change in 30 years. Not that South Africa is close to perfect, but it's changed a lot in that time. At some point in the future anyway, things will be bad, and then 30 years from then, they will be a lot better. That is unless the whole region is uninhabitable and largely under water because of warming or we're all dead because of nuclear war or killed by skynet before then.
I should have been clearer. I wasn't asking whether a solution might eventually be possible if a lot of time passed and a lot of things changed. If enough time passes and enough things change, eventually almost anything becomes possible.

I guess that I was asking whether a solution is possible without a lot of things changing, however long that might take.
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10-13-2023 , 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by microbet
The answer is obviously yes, but who knows when. The world is absolutely full of coexisting people who are descended from other people who were at war and disputing territory. In 5 years? Virtually no chance. In 30 years? Sometimes a really surprising amount of things change in 30 years. Not that South Africa is close to perfect, but it's changed a lot in that time. At some point in the future anyway, things will be bad, and then 30 years from then, they will be a lot better. That is unless the whole region is uninhabitable and largely under water because of warming or we're all dead because of nuclear war or killed by skynet before then.
Or things could just be solved how the Arab world decided to deal with its historical Jewish and Christian minority populations (most of whom didn't actually do anything, they just got caught up in collective punishment). Pogrom them out of existence. Problem solved.
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10-13-2023 , 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubble_Balls
They don’t have to be completely equivalent to both be well over the line of what should be acceptable. On top of that, we should be holding allies that receive aid from us and call themselves a democracy to a much higher standard than we do terrorists. Not hacking up babies ain’t gonna cut it. You’re going to have to also not go to blowing them up and starving them out as the first option.
You haven't answered my question in a straight manner and your second line is just another gussied up way of saying Israel bad.


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You only recognize the reactive context starting on Saturday. That’s the problem.
No, it's why I stated itt that I see this conflict in bottom line terms due to its sheer length. You really want to get bogged down forever in individual wrongdoings? Oslo accords. Israel made concessions and the result was a long ass terrorist campaign.
Disengagement. Israel Retreat from Gaza, dismantle settlements and go back to pre 1967 border. Result? Hamas take over, turn it into terrorist central and launch yet more attacks. As their aim is to obliterate Israel with no compromise.


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The reactive context started decades ago. What happened on Saturday is partially a result of that. Aren’t you Irish? Shouldn’t you understand that oppression breeds violence? It’s not a justification to simply acknowledge that this is a fact that has played out again and again across history. If you are unwilling to face the context nothing is ever going to change. And again, in any other scenario people would find the human shield argument for killing innocent people because it’s convenient and you value the lives of your soldiers over their babies abhorrent, because it is.
Yes oppression breeds violence and you know what helps perpetuate it? Intransigence and obstinacy. You know what helps end it? Compromise. Concessions from both parties, even if some are bitter pills to swallow for all concerned.
The main reason the Irish peace process was successful was because both sides sat across a table and thrashed it out and gave mutual concessions and engaged in mutual compromises. That's why our peace has so far been lasting.
I do not agree with some of Israel's methods and consider their cutting off water as abhorrent. But bottom line it's Israel who have historically made concessions. It's Hamas- supported by the majority of Palestinians- who call for Israel's extermination. So again stop attempting moral equivalence here and don't try legitimise their beliefs. You're an ideologue and all your excuses and hand wringing yet again simply amount to Israel bad because reasons, due to your ideology.
That's why when they bomb Gaza it's genocide and when they tell civilians to gtfo of dodge before they start bombing that's genocide too because Israel bad forever and ever Amen.
That's why Hamas and Palestinian intransigence will always be excused and the fact that such an attitude will perpetuate violence will be disregarded because Israel bad.
And you can deny this all you like but don't expect me to buy it.
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10-13-2023 , 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Rococo
I should have been clearer. I wasn't asking whether a solution might eventually be possible if a lot of time passed and a lot of things changed. If enough time passes and enough things change, eventually almost anything becomes possible.

I guess that I was asking whether a solution is possible without a lot of things changing, however long that might take.
Sure, but my point is that big changes are often quite surprising at the time. Like German unification seemed like it would never happen until it did. So, I'd say possible, perhaps unlikely at any particular time, but there's really no telling and I think, more likely than not, it will seem abrupt whenever it happens.
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10-13-2023 , 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Slighted
it's only a "war crime" when it's not the US or Israel doing it...
Yeah this thread isn't about AmeriKKKA so maybe you and Karl OG should go have a circle jerk with victor and any other whataboutist.
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10-13-2023 , 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunyain
Or things could just be solved how the Arab world decided to deal with its historical Jewish and Christian minority populations (most of whom didn't actually do anything, they just got caught up in collective punishment). Pogrom them out of existence. Problem solved.
One of the big racist things you keep doing is pretending The Arab World is some unified thing. You'd never do that with White Christian Europeans. You'd never put Russians in the same world as Spaniards. Every Arab majority country is different and they are individually filled with varied populations.
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10-13-2023 , 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by caseIIclosed
I don't think there is a viable solution that people will accept. I think it's zero sum and if you give something you palestine you take something from israel.
Okay but for all intents it's also a zero-sum game between Iran and Saudi Arabia. So a void of Hamas/Iran in Gaza opens it up for SA to fill, if....
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10-13-2023 , 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubble_Balls
I find the banning of pro-Palestinian demonstrations in France and Germany pretty worrying. It’s being done in the name of intolerance of antisemitism. And while I’ve seen the videos and know that there has been an antisemitic element to at least some of these events this is clearly not the entirety of the pro-Palestinian side and I’m not hearing condemnation of the rampant anti-Muslim rhetoric that’s occurring across social media at the moment. There’s also (rightfully) increased security for synagogues across Europe. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I haven’t heard of the same for mosques. The combination of these factors seems to give tacit approval from moderate politicians that what the far right has been messaging in Europe, that Muslims in your community are dangerous, is actually true. I’m pretty concerned that just like after 9/11 we’re going to see attacks on Muslims or people who even look like they might be Muslim. If things continue this way I think it’s also going to be a gift to the far right in future elections.
The banning of demonstrations is anti democratic and anti freedom and I agree that it's troubling. I hope France & Germany reconsider. I think there should be increased security for both Synagogues and Mosques.
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10-13-2023 , 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by microbet
One of the big racist things you keep doing is pretending The Arab World is some unified thing. You'd never do that with White Christian Europeans. You'd never put Russians in the same world as Spaniards. Every Arab majority country is different and they are individually filled with varied populations.
Americans are always going on about "Europeans" despite there being 50 countries and cultures there and not all Europeans are white or Christian. In other news, You were saying something about big racist things?
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10-13-2023 , 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by microbet
Sure, but my point is that big changes are often quite surprising at the time. Like German unification seemed like it would never happen until it did. So, I'd say possible, perhaps unlikely at any particular time, but there's really no telling and I think, more likely than not, it will seem abrupt whenever it happens.
I mostly agree with this.
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