If I was making a list of people I was not cool with because of present and past actions along this line, it would be an EXTREMELY long list. The fact your list is so short, and focused so much on one group, says a lot about how this is political for you. And you have no first principles at all to opposing murder, ethnic cleansing, colonization, etc. You just have ideological, tribal allegiance to people you support (Islamofascists) and enemies (Jews); and their actual actions are mostly irrelevant to your allegiances.

It is the second most deadly conflict in the world this year. Ukraine is first and Victor posts in that thread a lot. Darfur, which you talk about so much is fourth. You should start a Darfur thread and see if you are literally the only person on this site who has any first principles. You probably are.

He posts to defend the aggressors who are committing the genocides though, because of tribal zero sum thinking (Russians are anti-west which makes them good). This supports my point more than yours.

Also, Darfur would be significantly worse except the black Africans were allowed to flee to Chad to escape the Arab ethnic cleansers. If Gazan non combatants had been allowed to flee to Sinai or Egypt their casualty numbers would have been significantly lower.

But in the Palestinian case the politics are more important than the people, so allowing them to flee would be "genocide," so here we are.

I dont defend Israel and they are clearly doing genocide. I dont think Russia is doing genocide.

regardless, my position is consistent. I support a cease fire in both cases.

Saudi Arabia is on a trajectory to become a net oil importer within 10 years. Iranians will be burning furniture to stay warm this winter. Therefore, "the Muslim world has to will get over their antisemitism and accept Israel." Israel knows that.

Chad-Sudan border is more than 100 times as long as the Egypt-Gaza border and Chad's GDP is 1/40th Egypt's. I don't think Chad really has the option of stopping the refugees.

Wat. I would love to find a place to bet against this.

Citibank will book it.

I even have a citi account. I haven't noticed the casino section online.

My first principle is supporting liberalism and Enlightenment principles and rejected petty, tribal zero sum bigotry. That is why I oppose the current iteration of leftism so much, because that is where it is leading us (both their own petty zero sum ideology and energizing the tribal right).

I also am cognizant of what we stand to lose if we abandon the Enlightenment project and give in to tribal zero sum bigotry. It could very well be any of us throwing literal lynch mob parties in the streets and parading around "enemy" half naked women war conquests.

Seeing how in a NY high school last week a literal mob of students shut down the school and were hunting down a Jewish teacher and the school administration had to lock her in a room and shield her there for hours, I think demonstrates we are a lot closer to the precipice of 3rd world zero sum violent tribalism than we realize.

right but you think it is ok to fire Palestinians and chase them into rooms under threat of violence. why is that? not to mntion the whole 10k dead children thing.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F_051UMW...pg&name=medium
(embed fail)

Interesting how Qatar is not in the list at all (but Saudi and UAE are) despite Qatar being much more actively involved. Also interesting Russia is so highly perceived despite not being actively involved in the war/propaganda effort. Palestinians must just see the Russian invasion and like what they see. Maybe any Gaza residents who wished could be offered resettlement in Russia, since so many of them seem to be fans.

I dont think it is ok. I think Hamas (and the other terrorist groups) should give back the hostages and disband, and the Palestinian people should give up their suicide mission to undo a war they lost 75 years ago.

Then once they established a genuine commitment to peace the international community could help them build a peaceful, prosperous society. Gaza especially is prime beachfront property on the Mediterranean. No reason Gaza couldn't be built into something like Singapore, save for the zero sum tribal belligerence of the people living there.

What liberal party or politician do you support ?

But you're still ignoring that those in Palestine who wanted peace were pushed out with Israel's help in favor of those who don't.

We have the smoking gun quotes...MB posted one of them. It's not some hypothetical or some "conspiracy" but rather it's all out in the open. But yeah it would be great if Gaza became that. Those running the Israeli government did not want that for them though. Instead it would seem that they wanted just what we're seeing now.

Your first sentence is A LOT of projection. The PA didn't want peace or get pushed out. When do you think the PA wanted peace and got pushed out. Is there a specific time frame you are thinking of?

Even if Netanyahu (who is just one politician who has been in and out of power for the last 30 years, not some imnopetent God King, preferred to keep Gaza and the West Bank separated because it made an eventual Palestinian state less likely in his mind; that does not mean the PA wanted peace and were pushed out (at least not by Israel).

Right now, I would probably hold my nose and vote Democrat in most cases. They give the far left way too much oxygen, and have some very bad ideas about pushing racial equity, but at least they are generally adults and are dedicated to liberal principles. The Republican candidates are generally just so childish and cartoonish.

Locally, I recently moved and the district I live in was gerrymandered to give the Democrats more seats, so I am not really super tuned into who the candidates are at different levels. I should probably make a point to be more informed by next November.

Luckbox,

I think you tend to give Israel, and specifically Netanyahu, way too much agency in how Palestinian internal politics played out. He may have had his preferences and tried to nudge things the way he wanted, but he wasn't some puppet master pulling all the strings, especially in the long time periods he wasn't in power.

The Gaza Palestinians had plenty of agency and democratically voted for Hamas knowing full well their ideology and tactics, and have generally supported them since. I certainly dont recall someone dedicated to peace who was pushed out to allow this to happen, unless you mean the Israeli settlers (I know you dont).

The conservative democrat party?

The party fighting two proxy wars, at least???

The party that keeps blacks and browns in jail for weed ??


They are not liberal

What do you think the far left is?

also

Elaborate on all this zero sum stuff?

I think he means Classical Liberals, which is kinda what people thought Conservatives were before Reagan.

Bedtime, so this will be short. We can revisit later if there is interest. But succinctly, the far left is dedicated to a (mostly false) oppressor/oppressed racial narrative that boils everything down into racial hierarchies maintained by force and coercion, and neglects the roles of cooperation and competence. Nothing productive will come out of embracing this negative, bitter, mostly false ideology IMO.

Zero sum is kind of the simple tribal idea that it is my tribe vs your tribe and anything that hurts you is good for me, and vice versa. Many Arabs would view anything they perceive as negative happening to the Jewish community as a positive for them, and celebrate it. This is very zero sum. Extreme examples of this are the celebrations in the streets on 9/11 and 10/7.

As opposed to what one might define as classical liberals, who might see something negative happening to an adversary and have empathy and/or try to think beyond simple zero sum tribalism and how this might not end in such a good outcome. For example, many liberal Jews might view Israel's current offensive as a negative (even those who think it a necessary negative) because they feel it will breed more problems for Israel and jews in the long run. You certainly didn't see any voices in the Arab community criticizng the 10/7 for the potential fallout. The solidarity supporting it was very pronounced, which you would expect from a zero sum tribal view of the world.

This illustrates the difference in a liberal and a zero sum tribal viewpoint of the world. Probably not a perfect illustration, but it is late and I am tired, so here we are.

QFT

https://www.lmoga.com/news/saudi-ara...porter-by-2030

That article is 11 years old
Still accurate?