iirc, I read somewhere that they are not currently considered war casualties. altho many should be, including the kids starving to death and the people dying without dialysis for example.

can you confirm each and every one of them has died as a direct consequence of Israel actions? how? we are at the "person positive to sarscov2 drowns and it's a covid death" stage of accounting

there is no starving though, and ipocaloric diets actually increase life expectancy

It would be good news, but it doesn't say that at all. What it said was the ratio of women and children to men should not be as high as the numbers reported by the Gazan Health Ministry. The estimate still relies on the numbers from the Gazan Health Ministry. If those numbers are worthless, then so is the new estimate. Insofar as the Gazan numbers are correct, they are a count of bodies actually found and don't include people just buried and the number of people missing are not included in those numbers.

A lot of times estimates have quite large ranges and people choose either one extreme or the other. Both are probably wrong. Anything that just attempts to count people is obviously an undercount.

Btw can I just say that this thread is a fascinating representation of the conflict.

If you remove the ability of people to label pro-Israel people as "genocide lovers" or "baby killers", and the conversation has to steer/stick to facts and civility, the dialogue changes very fast. That's been my experience in all places I've had these discussions. And let's recognize the same of our Goosie buddy who was going overboard in the other direction.

I do think we'll end up with some of our more productive discussions now, because a big chunk of the outcomes of these has just been removed. We can't just immediately hurl the insults. And thank goodness for that.

no they did not. this is what the guy said:

uhh yes the revisions are taken you know as we of course in the fog of war its difficult to come up with numbers. we get numbers from different sources on the ground and then we try to cross check them. as we cross check them we update the numbers and we will continue to do that as that progresses.

numbers get adjusted many times over the course of the conflict. once a conflict is done we will have the most accurate figures. but we're just going with what we can absolutely confirm which will always be the low end of what the numbers are.

well you can consider them reliable from the fact that we are continually checking them. uhh we will continue to do that over the course of the war. but but the numbers you know ultimately have to con- be regularly checked so that we can be sure that what we are putting out is valid.

It's a little early to reach this conclusion don't you think? And it was like 5 minutes in that mets was completely out of line. And I don't share the sentiment that it's wonderful to remain civil when people make the argument that hunger is actually good for the children of Gaza.

Victor, the confirmed numbers for women and children are now nearly 50% lower. Let us celebrate this as good news. The only way one could take it.

For example, the UN could have confirmed them as 50% higher. And we'd be FREAKING OUT today.

almost 50% lower is GOOD.

Did you read your cite? The numbers you are talking about can't possibly be referred to as confirmed. What they do is call into question the Gazan numbers, but they don't do anything to confirm any numbers.

I didn't see what Mets did. But I hope he comes back better if he's on timeout. We can all be civil to each other now and set a better example for everyone in this conflict.

Since I can't count on any Israeli numbers (for obvious reasons), I will consider the UN ones the cleanest ones we can converse around.

I prefer to not use the numbers from an internationally recognized terrorist organization. But the UN, I'll differ to.

It's pretty bizarre really. They suggest the ratio of women and children to men is impossible, so the supposed count that the Gazans did is bad. And then just make the ratio what you think is correct and otherwise keep the count that you supposedly proved was bad.

You don't have to "remain civil" per se. We just can't have the thread full of people calling each other "monkey filth" and "POS" etc. By all means, get worked up, but like... there are literal rules for the site.

I simply rely on the OCHA (UN) figures. And I think they are a just arbiter.

I agree that the UN is more credible than either Hamas or Israel, but it's still just sticking your head in the sand to not even try to understand how they came up with the numbers. You know the UN isn't counting bodies and you cited something, I would think for a reason, which explained why they adjusted the Gazan numbers. I don't know that anyone at the UN has high confidence in these numbers. They probably don't. But you act like you do.

No one is on timeout. I'm making allowances for a slight learning curve while we get this rebooted.

also, nothing about what the UN requires to confirm the Gazan numbers. do they need ssn, dob, maiden name, eye color? dna? a photograph?

the logical conclusion from the objective observations is that the numbers are massively undercounted, even by the KKKHHHHamas health ministry.

Meanwhile, at leafy Oxford Uni:

I don't care about the rules of the site and I don't care about being banned. I really don't care, so I'm not going out of my way to be an ahole, and I'm not generally an ahole in real life, but if someone buries something in subtext, I'm not going to respond to them in subtext. I'm going to be straightforward and honest.

I'm doing a thing here. Work with me please.

You've put me in a difficult position because I want to be nice, but I also do not like moderation. But, I generally let being nice win, perhaps to a fault.

Micro I believe we're supposed to just discuss the point at large, and not how I act or feel. So let's try that please? Crossnerds is doing a great job and it's working well so far.

When we consider the numbers, let's consider what it means to revise that order of magnitude down in one chunk. Have we considered what is required to get there? And for it to be so much all at once. My mind can think of a lot of ways that happens. None of them flattering to the count process on either side.

You're gonna like it, its gonna be good

It's already good! It's way less stress. Way less keyboard warrior stuff. Less people carrying the weight of this into the weekend.

Crossnerds bringing peace to the thread is a vibe I'm here for

Look dude. I didn't insult you and I'm not going to say "no reflection on you my friend, but the words in your last posts suggest an unmerited confidence in the UN estimates."

Half is not an order of magnitude. An order of magnitude is 1/10th. Or, perhaps it would be more polite to say "It might be easier to understand each other if we agreed on using the same base. I think people usually default to base-10, but if you prefer base-2 that's fine with me sir."

As for what I think and have said on the numbers, it's always been most reasonable to assume the number counts are wrong and have little faith in any of them. Starting from that point, you can discuss some certainly innaccurate guesses.