I have to think Hamas being an internationally recognized terrorist organization isn't too contentious. A coalition of 35 countries in just the Americas, call them terrorists. In Europe you have ample countries doing the same. Also Japan, Australia, etc

I'm not really being outrageous with this one.

ok but why is he using it? he did use the word, and type it out, unless someone else did that for him

only if you do the same for israel.

if you dont, well, thats racism. and thats exactly what I asked about

if it is determined that rafiki is being racist by calling Palestinians terrorists but refusing to call Israelis terrorists, what happens?

I think we have to be ok with the idea that an internationally recognized terrorist organization just got caught inflating women/children death toll figures by nearly 50%, as discussed by the UN.

This allows for the other side of the coin, which are things like accusations of war crimes against a UN member country like Israel (with the same sort of data driven evidence based approaches).



These forms of discussion are the same. We have to be comfortable with both. And I think that's where we are getting to.

PW, I'm not here to moderate whether a poster is racist- I'm here to moderate whether they make racist posts. Hamas being designated a terrorist organization is a mainstream idea. If you want to argue why that designation is racist from a societal point of view, you are free to do so, as well as argue that the Israeli government has also earned that designation. But I will not be moderating thought crimes.

This thread isn't meant to debate the character of other posters; its to debate the current events and how they affect our world.

If you have questions, such as the ones you've been posting here in the thread, I will try to answer them to the best of my ability, but I'd like to ask you again to please utilize private messages so as not to derail this thread. Thank you.

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bolded is quite simply a lie.

It will be interesting to see the discussion in that context. I applaud you for giving this an honest go. I hope the thread participants try to stick to it.

its absolutely impossible to adhere to when the same lies get posted for pages on end.

Also, while we're here, lets all consider instead of saying something is "a lie" or someone is "lying", try to extend good faith in our arguments and use words like "not true" or "inaccurate" that don't have accusatory undertones regarding each others intentions. This will lead to better conversations between opposing sides. This is just a suggestion, not a hard and fast rule. Thanks

It certainly seems like the #2 in the 1 or 2. I think they want to take their chances with Donald.

Children will be dying in Gaza because of the massive destruction of homes and infrastructure and even directly from unexploded ordinance for at least a generation.

It's like your rape "mistruths" Victor. I must simply accept them as your opinion (and actually I do now, I don't mind them). You can have those opinions on rape in this conflict. They're minority opinions (in direct contradiction with the UN), but opinions nevertheless.

I didn't have time to watch the documentary yet btw. Soon I hope.

I mean, when he has posted the same thing multiple times and I calmly pointed out that what he was describing was not accurate, even from his sources. at this point, what else can you say?

the difference is that the UN guy is not saying what you are claiming. its really that simply. and it has been pointed out multiple times.

Let's chalk it up to the "fog of war" or "fog of posting" and carry on, shall we?

Speak to the audience and convince listeners with facts and sources. There's no real winning between two individuals. If you remember this is a forum and not a battle of wits with a winner or loser, it will be easier to look past disagreements that go nowhere.

UN guy: we are only counting numbers that we can "absolutely confirm". these are the lowest end of the spectrum possible. like in any conflict we will not know the true numbers until it is over.
rafki: see!?!? see!?!? that proves Hamas is lying!

Actually confirming the dead before reporting on the dead, is an excellent way to conduct journalism and stats. The night of the "hospital" raid (the parking lot one) was an example of what we could stand to gain from these standards.

If we all did this, we might never use "genocide" in spots where perhaps it does not apply. Know what I mean?

Far fewer women and children have died. Let's just take the good news where we can find it in this conflict.

the Gazans have confirmed those numbers.

can you confirm this?

Neither of these things really do anything at all to arrive at a count of the number of people killed.

Ehm where are you on the "gaza residents who would have died anyway" thing?

2m people, 7.5 months since 10 7, baseline mortality (all causes) would be around 10-12k (because extremely young population) , maybe a tad more.

You sure the very sick person who dies, or the unfortunate one, isn't chalked up as a war casualty? how, why? people die every day normally, that has to be accounted for right?

like, can you go into the Health Ministry names of those who are listed as dead and confirm they are still alive? can the UN or anyone?

The UN has literally just done this for us. We can only rely on the best impartial data we have.