thats not the ratio.

Or even the broader question, "how do you have a functional, peaceful Palestinian state in a society that glorifies and supports state-within-a-state violent militias with unreasonable, maximalist demands"

Looking around this part of the world, I see a lot of barely functional, or outright dysfunctional, states with autonomous militias operating within them. And given where they are now, I see no realistic plan to create a Palestinian state that doesn't have groups like Hamas, PIJ and Hezbollah ensuring failure from the inside.

Just a lot of platitudes and political speak about a 2 state solution and what Israel should unilaterally do to make this a reality, while ignoring the biggest problem.

Israel has no right to eradicate Hamas.

You are right, it's lower than 3:1

Less than 40k total dead, more than 10k Hamas people dead among them

It's a strongly related argument.

Consequences usually imform decisions.

Quote:
I couldn't imagine having some old key from a recent ancestor and devoting my life to retaking the house it belonged to, when there is no chance even exists anymore anyways.

wtf do you think Israel is?


Today, mostly 3rd-4th-5th generation of refugees that where thrown out of their home country and literally had no where else to go.

During the earliest Zionist periods there was actual little interest from the Jewish diaspora to relocate to Israel. Then in Europe antisemitic fascism, WWII and the Shoah happened, and the surviving diaspora was explicitly told to go there, and given no other plausible options.

And during all this time there was equally no interest in the Mizrachi Jewish population to relocate to Israel. Until the Muslim nations they were living in decided to punitively punish them for Israel's existence, and gave them no other reasonable option.

When the Ottoman Empire collapsed, there was a small movement among the ethnic Greek diaspora to retake Istanbul/Constantinople. But it was a small movement with little popular interest, and went nowhere. I suspect Zionism would have had the same results if not for historical externalities.

I propose the Palestinians be given every opportunity for creating a peaceful state. I dont think the world should tell them you have no choice but to generationally fight Israel to take back land that was lost 4 generations ago.

But at some point you also have to take no for an answer, and if the answer is "no, we choose to fight," relocation is the only other choice.

Not too much when there is something you have to do regardless.

After 10 7 eradicating Hamas at any cost full stop is the only possible Israel imperative above all.

It is not a perfect analogy, but in 2010 Pakistani state sponsored terrorists went on a 4 day coordinated rampage in Mumbai; and India basically responded by doing nothing.

I dont know if a more measured response letting Hamas stay in power would be a better decision than what Israel is doing now, but it was and still is an option.

But I also think the decision Israel is making now is reasonable given the circumstance; and the faux outrage crowd is not being reasonable. It is almost like they are stuck in a dream, where the most unreasonable decisions/outcomes make perfect sense.

For example, the argument we cant take Gaza Palestinians out of the warzone because they may not be able to come back makes perfect sense in the fever dream, but in reality is quite bizarre and runs counter to how we treat every other refugee situation in modern times.

last I checked over 100k had left. and many more are trying to leave. it costs about 10k a person and Israel is obv restricting anyone from leaving right now.

so I am not quite sure what you are talking about.

He is talking about the international community not pushing for all civilians to evacuate from warzones.

They did it for Ukraine which is why very few civilians died (as a % of total casualties).

Why aren't the UN and all western countries clamoring for Egypt and others to take in any civilian who wants to flee from Gaza? Ofc with the west footing the bill in full.

That's the truly incredible thing wrt Gaza.

It's not like Ukrainian give up their right to Donbass by evacuating all civilians from the warzone. Same with gazeans.

Give the Palestinians their state or revert the occupied territories (or both).

Who in this thread has been salivating over that

The lies in this thread need to stop

The normal scenario would be all Gazean civilians allowed to pick and choose from a list of countries that open up to them (with quotas by country ofc), the west paying for it, and basically no one except Hamas left in Gaza.

No need for any aid, hospitals and so on. Easy destruction of all tunnels and everything Hamas has built which is used against Israel (including all weapon stockpiles and so on). No need for further destruction of civilian infrastructure including homes. No civilian collateral damage.

Ofc this will guarantee Hamas is eradicated in Gaza. They either flee without any weapon pretending to be civilians or stay and die, and their stronghold gets cleaned of all their stockpiles and tunnels. They would be done forever.

With no civilian casualties.

They have an obligation to

Does that eradicate Hamas?? How?

Egypt is not allowing them to leave as well. Israel is at war

How do you think? Why was Hamas not formed until after the territories became occupied?

the only thing Israel is obligated to do by International Law is to **** off back the 1967 borders and end the blockade.

the only thing they are obligated to do by morality is to create one state with equal rights and reparations.

Egypt is extorting those wishing to leave but they arent preventing them at this point. It is Israel that broke their treaty and international law (like always) and seized control of the Rafah crossing.

Nothing is guaranteeing hamas eradication. Certainly not this war

No one is asking for this, or even would allow it to happen; including Israel, US, Western world, Arab World, etc. All this would do is turn Israel into a sectarian failed state like Lebanon, with much worse outcome for the world. The Arab World is having a meeting in Bahrain right now, and this isn't even a talking point.

I am not sure what this has to do with eradication.

How would you exile/jail for life/kill every single person in Hamas today (=eradication) by giving them a state?

Agreed. it creates more future terrororist not only from Gaza but the muslim world. Thats what bin Laden was all about, hating the US and partners.

The war on gazans, or shall we say the butchering of children in gaza will only lead to more attacks in Europa etc. More al quada, and noko Haram.

Eradication is impossible. Its like chopping off one head of a 7 headed dragon. That will only grow back and make 7 more Heads. Or in this case 7M Heads. Remember the muslims are 2.5 Biilion people.

Why is this doctor, who is an er docotor in gaza now, saying 90% of the Patients with blown off limbs are civilians??

90%?? Thats only 10% hamas.

All the muslims are watching this.
The iranians are....

Who on earth is operating these drones?

They must be smoking crack, right??

Who the f is droning and targeting 5 year old children?