Alright, so now we are, as a collective, going to reflect on this new system where timeouts are on the honor system, but if you violate the honor system then you go to real timeout. microbet will rejoin us at midnight, as previously stated.

Lets not make this a point of conversation in the thread please. Thank youuu

Here you go again leaving out half the story. It was very much a 2 way street. There were moderate Jewish Zionists who looked for fellow Arabs to create some sort of secular state where Jews and Arabs could live side by side in peace, but the Arabs of that time wanted none of it.

They were completely captivated with the ethnofascism movements in Europe (especially Naziism), and all they wanted was to kick all the Jews, British and Communists (lots of Venn diagram overlap in the Arab mind between these 3 groups) out of the Middle East to make the region Pan-Arab. And even when fascism was defeated in WWII, instead of embracing liberalism like West Germany and Italy, the Arabs doubled down on their fascistic, antisemitic ideals. And then at the end of the 20th century pivoted to Islamism and here we are.

I think you would be absolutely surprised how accommodating the Israelis would be if the Arabs/Palestinians gave them something to work with. But they have given them nothing, And now the Arabs/Palestinians are getting the blowback from their decades of hate, intolerance, belligerence, and maximalist demands.

That is what happened in Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Ethiopia, Ukraine and 100 other conflicts. This is the first (and hopefully last) conflict where the collective hive mind has decided it is actually a bad idea to remove civilians from active war zones.

Ok. The propaganda seems overstated to me, but I obviously have my own biases.

That being said, it does seem a tricky proposition when you are fighting a war agains the recognized govt of a region, that still has control of large parts of said region, to deliver aid to the people while still fighting the govt.

If Israel is fighting a war against Hamas, are they supposed to let Hamas take the aid shipments and dole them out? It is a very bizarre situation, when you are actively fighting a govt in dense urban warfare (and taking casualties) that also operates as a guerrilla force, that is still widely supported by the people, and can blend into the civilian population easily to move around.

Ok, well. I can't figure out the mod control panel to lift the ban early, so until I get help it is what it is. Sorry, micro.

This should be a learning experience for all of us. Timeouts come with risks.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/15/middl...tam/index.html

So right now, Israel is divided if they should even keep military in gaza immediately after the war

But you are all convinced they want to resettle?

No

Going to ask, perhaps it's obvious, but what does he use to judge whether a person is Hamas or not? Their own words?

What do the IDF use when they aim their missiles?

Or perhaps they don’t .

The Kingdom of Bahrain, for the first time in its history, will host the 33rd Arab Summit on May 16, 2024. This is the first summit to be held since October 7, 2023, when Hamas attacked Israel, igniting the subsequent war in Gaza.

For more stories from The Media Line go to themedialine.org
An official source in the Arab League outlined the plan for the conference in a statement to The Media Line: “The summit will discuss the course of events in Gaza and also will consider a re-presentation of the Arab initiative that was put forward in 2002, which stipulates that the Arab countries recognize Israel in exchange for the establishment of a Palestinian state within the borders of June 7, 1976.”

With regard to Gaza, our source explained, “A timetable will be proposed for a ceasefire in Gaza, and the handover of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority, away from Hamas, since it was the one that led Gaza into a dark tunnel. There will also be an initiative to reconstruct the Gaza Strip, Rafah, and other areas affected by the ongoing war there. More than 65% of Gaza has sustained damage as a result of the recent war.”

According to the same source, those who have confirmed their attendance include the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud; the Emirati President, Mohammed bin Zayed Al Nahyan; the Emir of Qatar, Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani; the King of Jordan, Abdullah II; the President of Egypt, Abdel Fattah El-Sisi; and Syrian President Bashar al-Assad – notably the second Arab summit he has attended, following the Jeddah summit last year.

A Kuwaiti political analyst, Dr. Ayed Al-Manna, told The Media Line of his conviction that “The upcoming Arab summit will witness the largest Arab consensus in history on various issues. There is agreement on how to resolve the conflict in Palestine and the current events in Gaza; there is also agreement among Arab leaders on the need to stop the conflict in Sudan and to reduce the escalation between Israel and Iran.”

Walid Al-Ghandour, an Egyptian journalist, highlighted the situation in Sudan. “There will be an initiative to stop the fire in Sudan. The situation has become completely out of control.”

Palestinian question central to the conference
Others declared that the Palestinian question would be central to the conference. Mohammad Rashid, a Saudi journalist, told The Media Line, “There is almost an Arab consensus that the time has come to find a radical solution to the conflict in Palestine, in accordance with the two-state proposal.” He expects the Arab countries to pressure the United States and Israel to implement this solution as quickly as possible.

“This summit,” Rashid declared, “will produce decisive decisions on the issue of establishing a Palestinian state in accordance with United Nations resolutions, especially the recent one in which 143 countries voted in favor of granting Palestine full membership in the United Nations.”

But also, he added, "There is an Arab consensus that there is no place for Hamas in subsequent Palestinian decisions. Hamas' role will end after the first day of the cease-fire, and it will not participate in any governance in the Palestinian National Authority or elsewhere."




https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/ar...-summit-801303

Extensive operational intellingence. They monitor with drones, they monitor comunications electronically, they have spies on the ground, they get intelligence from other western countries as well.

That's how they manage to kill far fewer civilians as collateral damage than basically any war in urban settings in history before them, even if Hamas uses civilians as human shields.

It can only work if the Palestinian people buy in AND the PA has the will and ability to control organized violence. If militias are allowed to form states within states (eg. Hezbollah, Houthis, Hamas, PIJ) to attack Israel, then it is a non starter. The West Bank is militarily strategic high land that overlooks Israel's main population centers. Israel cannot allow a Hezbollah, even Hamas, like militia to set up shop there to use as a base to threaten and attack Israel.

Pardon me for suspecting Palestinians won't get to return to Gaza with 40 year refugee camps in Jordan.

Israel needs a credible plan.

Hurrah for only tens of thousands of dead men women and children!



Not everyone agrees with you.

We already know what the plan is because people itt have been salivating over it - turn Gaza into a sea resort for rich Israelis to buy property.

There has been hundreds of millions of refugees in the last century or so. A lot of them right now. This is the only one where it is deemed important they can come back, before they are even relocated. As just one example of many, there are millions of people in Sudan displaced right now. There is no concern for their theoretical repatriation sometime down the line.

Like I said before, the narrative surrounding this case is extremely bizarre. And equally bizarre the inside the magic show we just accept the entire bizarre situation as being totally normal.

Of course we cant evacuate civilians out of an overpopulated, poverty stricken urban war zone, because of concerns they wouldn't be able to come back to said overpopulated, poverty stricken war zone.

That's honestly not a bad plan if Palestinians get to stay and/or move to West Bank.

But Bibi has not mentioned anything resembling a plan for Gaza at all.

It's just bomb and pressure with total disregard for Palestinian lives except to the extent he has to concede to Americans and more level headed Israelis. He's bombing to pander to the idiots in Israel and he absolutely needs to go. People like mets simultaneously acknowledging Bibi may be guilty of war crimes and doing nothing to get him removed while tacitly supporting his tactics need take a look in the mirror and re-evaluate if they've become indistinguishable from those that hate them.

I never said evacuation is a bad idea. The point was there was a lot Israel could have done to ameliorate the suffering of Palestinians and I've repeatedly made the point that Palestinians' caloric intake is so much below maintenance any food aid would be consumed at the point of distribution if they weren't just randomly air dropped and pretty much dumped out of a truck for people to fight over (well fed Hamas fighters would win in scrums... DUH).

Israel has opted to go full on stupid and force 3rd parties to give aid in very inefficient ways that play right into Hamas' hands.

It's pretty gross given the death toll, and might be bad anyway if it means Palestinians being second class citizens and serving/waiting/maiding for rich Israelis.

This kind of maximalist, ethnonationalistic viewpoint among the Palestinians is widely supported, but it is extremely bizarre and a big part of the problem. I couldn't imagine having some old key from a recent ancestor (or even being 80 years old and it being my own key) and devoting my life's energies to retaking the house it belonged to, when there is no chance even exists anymore anyways.

Of the 8 billion people in the world right now, a big chunk of them probably have some recent ancestor that left under some level of duress, and no one dreams of repatriation to wherever that was. This sort of romantic ethnonationalism is completely bizarre, unrealistic, and hugely counterproductive.

I suspect you vastly underestimate the logistics and challenges of giving aid to a hostile population while you are fighting their govt in dense, urban guerrilla combat.

Like I said, I have listened/read people that have actual experience in these types of situations, that are not of the opinion Israel could do a lot more, short of not invading at all. The point is war sucks, and given the circumstances on the ground, Israel is not the stupid, inhumane monster that you believe them to be.

I suspect in 100 years when some lecturer is going over this war at West Point, and discussing what Israel could and should be doing from an actual logistical standpoint while still achieving their military ends, that lecturer will have a less harsh view of Israel's tactics than you do.

wtf do you think Israel is?

Expert advice: "If you invade it will be a ****ing disaster"

See, nothing we could do about it being a ****ing disaster

one thing they could do is not murder all the people who distribute aid. first they killed the police. then the tribal leaders. then the PLA people that they imported.

oh and not shoot the thousands of people awaiting aid.

Well, if you want to argue they shouldn't be invading at all, that is a completely different argument.

A ratio lower than 3 to 1 of civilian collateral damage vs enemy combatants in warfare in urban settings wit civilians still living there is exceptionally low, amongst the lowest in human history